PrCs - which ones are (a bit) over the edge?

[wildstarsreach]

Nah, it's "Special: Must have Pelor as patron deity." under the pre-reqs.

Empower Healing (Ex)
When a radiant servant of Pelor of at least 2nd level casts a domain spell from the Healing domain, that spell is affected as though by the Empower Spell feat. This spell does not use up a higher-level slot.​

A domain spell is one of those X+1 spells. So only those healing spells that are cast from the domain slot are affected by this ability. Which means that in order to take advantage of Empower/Maximize/Supreme Healing, you not only have to take the Healing domain, but you also have to prepare healing spells in your domain slots.

Some folks argue that "casts a domain spell from the Healing domain" means that any time that spell is cast from any slot this ability comes into play. Ironically, these folks often consider the Radiant Servant to be overpowered. *Shrug*.

I suggest that the difference between "casts a domain spell from the Healing domain" and "casts a domain spell from the Healing domain" is signifigant. Which means that if the Radiant Servant wants to use his Empower/Maximize/Supreme Healing, he needs the Healing domain.


No, the cleric isn't weak in offensive powers, but the Radiant Servant by way of its abilities encourages the defensive and restorative abilities of the cleric over those offensive abilities it has. The exception to this is its increased effectiveness against undead. So you're a better Party Band-Aid, and you're more effective against undead; the first is defensive and the second is situational and DM-controlled.

So if you want to play the traditional role of healer and undead-fighter, this is a great PrC for you. If you want to do anything else with your cleric, this PrC doesn't really help. And what is so unbalancing about having a PrC that makes clerics better healers? Specifically, clerics of the God of Healing?

That is if you took healing as a domain, nothing in the PrC requires you to choose it. Now, if you don't choose the Healing Domain as one of your domains, these abilities are wasted until such a time as you would aquire the healing domain. Also on Eberron, Dol-Arrah is the PrC's god.

If you also note that all these abilities are added in addition to the standard cleric. At 20th level, there is no difference in all abilities of a 20th level cleric or a 10th cleric/10 radiant servant except the additional radiant servent abilities and the required feat to be taken which is extra turning and what cleric probably won't take that. The radiant servent can do anything that the standard cleric can and be a super undead slayer as well. He has the choice to be a party healer or use his other two doamins.

This is another PrC that is too good not to take. We had one in our Age or Worms Campaign and it was almost too much in my opinion. Granted, I had a Kalashtar Psion/Wizard/Cerebremancer but this human character was not anything to dismiss.

 

[pawsplay]

IMHO, the Eldritch Knight and Radiant Servant are balanced. The FB is just a mess, balance is the smallest part of the equation there, next to murderous uncontrollable PCs, confusing PA calculations, ruling on what will stop one while in a deathless state, etc.

For brokenness, Illithid Slayer springs to mind. Ur-Priest. War Hulk. Hulking Hurler.

Most PrCs are, in my view, fairly weak. The Bladesinger, for instance, is less impressive at what it does than a Fig/Wiz/Duelist/EK who simply uses Still Spell and Quicken Spell a lot. Exotic Weapon Master, for a fighter, basically trades two fighter feats for three abilities inferior to most feats (uncanny blow being the exception). The Dread Pirate is kind of a joke. The notorious Metamind, even under ideal conditions, cannot match the power points of a single class psion.

 

[Felix]

At 20th level, there is no difference in all abilities of a 20th level cleric or a 10th cleric/10 radiant servant

Except, of course:

Alignment
Deity
Domains
Party Role​

A Radiant Servant cannot be a mysterious cleric of a forgotten god of death looking to bring retribution upon the unfaithful. Why? Because he's a cleric of Pelor (or Pelor-placeholder) who has the Sun domain, and is well advised to take the Healing domain so he can use half of his class abilities.

If it doesn't matter to you that you must be a NG worshipper of Pelor who is good at Healing, then RSoP will be a natural choice for you. I can't even count how many times I've wanted that on one hand, because when I've played a cleric, I've never wanted that.

The radiant servent can do anything that the standard cleric can and be a super undead slayer as well. He has the choice to be a party healer or use his other two doamins.

The Radiant Servant cannot use his Death Touch ability from his Death domain. He cannot Turn or Rebuke elemental creatures. He cannot Smite from his Destruction domain. He cannot use scrolls or wands as a Wizard nor cast Identify from his domain slot. He does not have Bluff, Disguise, and Hide as class skills from his Trickery domain. He cannot cast [Evil] spells.

What he can do is choose to fill his domain slots with Cure spells that every other cleric can spontaneously cast from their spells available, while at the same time not preparing any other more interesting domain spells from his other two domains.

This is another PrC that is too good not to take. We had one in our Age or Worms Campaign and it was almost too much in my opinion.

You're kidding. Will you argue that the Ranger's Favored Enemy: Orc ability is too powerful when all you fight are Orcs? Of course the Radiant Servant is going to shine in Age of Worms: you spend the whole bloody campaign fighting Undead!

If you want to Heal and fight undead, then this class is obviously for you. But saying that the class is too good not to take if you want to heal and fight undead is as silly as saying the Dwarven Defender is too good not to take if you want to play a heavy-armor dwarf who stands in people's way and can't be moved.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Except, of course:

Alignment
Deity
Domains
Party Role​

A Radiant Servant cannot be a mysterious cleric of a forgotten god of death looking to bring retribution upon the unfaithful. Why? Because he's a cleric of Pelor (or Pelor-placeholder) who has the Sun domain, and is well advised to take the Healing domain so he can use half of his class abilities.

If it doesn't matter to you that you must be a NG worshipper of Pelor who is good at Healing, then RSoP will be a natural choice for you. I can't even count how many times I've wanted that on one hand, because when I've played a cleric, I've never wanted that.


The Radiant Servant cannot use his Death Touch ability from his Death domain. He cannot Turn or Rebuke elemental creatures. He cannot Smite from his Destruction domain. He cannot use scrolls or wands as a Wizard nor cast Identify from his domain slot. He does not have Bluff, Disguise, and Hide as class skills from his Trickery domain. He cannot cast [Evil] spells.

What he can do is choose to fill his domain slots with Cure spells that every other cleric can spontaneously cast from their spells available, while at the same time not preparing any other more interesting domain spells from his other two domains.


You're kidding. Will you argue that the Ranger's Favored Enemy: Orc ability is too powerful when all you fight are Orcs? Of course the Radiant Servant is going to shine in Age of Worms: you spend the whole bloody campaign fighting Undead!

If you want to Heal and fight undead, then this class is obviously for you. But saying that the class is too good not to take if you want to heal and fight undead is as silly as saying the Dwarven Defender is too good not to take if you want to play a heavy-armor dwarf who stands in people's way and can't be moved.

The majority of clerics fall into the good and healer routes. Yes, there is lots of cheese and nice abilities for playing other gods but they are generally neutral or evil and most campaigns in my 30 years of gaming revolve around good. The few evil games were are very interesting but are few and far between. For good campaigns, if you campare a cleric to a radiant servent, hands down the radiant servent is superior.

I will agree with another poster that the Eldritch Knight is balanced. Others such as Spellsword or Bladesinger are underpowered but not overly so.

 

[Faerl'Elghinn]

Fix wraithstrike to affecting only the next attack, Period. Sorry I'm off track.

That's what we did.

On subject, I find the Bloodstorm Blade from the BoNS to be pretty powerful, especially with Far Shot and the Blade Storm ability (10th-level class feature). Then again, maybe I'm just confusing "powerful" and "cool".

Another one that comes to mind is the Ironsoul Forgemaster from Magic of Incarnum. The ability to enchant arms and armor with epic enhancement bonuses at non-epic levels is pretty potent, IMO.

 

[Henry]

There's one other disadvantage to a Radiant Servant: d6 hit dice. Don't discount that as a heavy disincentive, especially since most clerics will be wearing periapts of wisdom instead of amulets of healing. I'm not saying it makes the class totally balanced as relates to the typical good turn-undead cleric, but it does dial the class back a large amount, by reducing his staying power and making him focus some of that awesome healign on himself.

By the Way, what are people's takes on using the Domain Spontaneity (Healing) Feat in conjunction with the Maximized/Empowered Healing the Radiant Servant gets? Shouldn't those two work together to give the Radiant Servant more healing than just what he's got in his domain slots?

 

[Feldspar]

Well, let's compare a straight fighter with an EK. I used PHB and DMG rules only, except for Arcane Strike.

Your choice of opponent for the EK feels like a bit of a strawman. A fighter limited to PHB and DMG tends to be pretty dang weak - hence the slew of feats in PHB II that require weapon spec and high BAB's which try to address that. The PHB/DMG also severly hamstrings fighters who just want to kick butt and deal raw damage. After Power Attack, Cleave and a few weapon feats, what the heck do you really want to put your feats into? Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec in another weapon type. Blech.

The fact that your EK also has Weapon Focus, Power Attack and Imp Crit highlight the problem. A fighter's main attribute is feats - but there are not trees deep enough or exclusive that only a fighter can make use of them. Instead a fighter gets parallel development - picking up powers at 16th level that they could have had at first level and that have only a minor (balanced at low levels) benefit.

You've spent four feats and valuable attribute points to end up with Whirlwind Attack - which I don't think is really worth it. The fact that this fighter only has a base 18 in Str also rings alarm bells for me. Modified with the belt and that's a +7 for two handed damage bonus of +10. If he's at all optimized he should really have that up to at least 20 to get the bonus of an even +8 with a +12 bonus to damage. You know, the same way you used the Gauntlets of Ogre Power on the EK to change his bonus damage from +4 to +6.

Anyway, I ran the numbers for your two characters. Note that on crits I'm not multiplying the extra damage from the AS - the same way extra damage from sneak attacks, flaming weapons, etc is not multiplied. h/r, c/r and d/r are hits, crits and damage per round respectively:

apr=3 bab=13 str=4
Greatsword +2 with level 7 AS  ab=27 2d6+8 + 7d4 17x2 2hands
   ac=40  pa=5  h/r=0.25 c/r=0.0275 d/r=11.31
   ac=39  pa=5  h/r=0.30 c/r=0.0450 d/r=13.88
   ac=38  pa=5  h/r=0.35 c/r=0.0550 d/r=16.25
   ac=37  pa=5  h/r=0.40 c/r=0.0650 d/r=18.63
   ac=36  pa=5  h/r=0.50 c/r=0.0825 d/r=23.31
   ac=35  pa=5  h/r=0.60 c/r=0.1050 d/r=28.13
   ac=34  pa=5  h/r=0.70 c/r=0.1325 d/r=33.06
   ac=33  pa=5  h/r=0.80 c/r=0.1525 d/r=37.81
   ac=32  pa=5  h/r=0.90 c/r=0.1725 d/r=42.56
   ac=31  pa=5  h/r=1.05 c/r=0.2000 d/r=49.63
   ac=30  pa=5  h/r=1.20 c/r=0.2325 d/r=56.81
   ac=29  pa=5  h/r=1.35 c/r=0.2700 d/r=64.13
   ac=28  pa=5  h/r=1.50 c/r=0.3000 d/r=71.25
   ac=27  pa=5  h/r=1.65 c/r=0.3300 d/r=78.38
   ac=26  pa=5  h/r=1.80 c/r=0.3600 d/r=85.50
   ac=25  pa=5  h/r=1.95 c/r=0.3900 d/r=92.63
   ac=24  pa=5  h/r=2.10 c/r=0.4200 d/r=99.75
   ac=23  pa=5  h/r=2.20 c/r=0.4400 d/r=104.50
   ac=22  pa=5  h/r=2.30 c/r=0.4600 d/r=109.25
   ac=21  pa=5  h/r=2.40 c/r=0.4800 d/r=114.00
   ac=20  pa=5  h/r=2.50 c/r=0.5000 d/r=118.75

apr=4 bab=16 str=7
Greatsword +3                  ab=28 2d6+17 17x2 2hands
   ac=40  pa=5  h/r=0.35 c/r=0.0475 d/r=13.52
   ac=39  pa=5  h/r=0.40 c/r=0.0575 d/r=15.56
   ac=38  pa=5  h/r=0.45 c/r=0.0675 d/r=17.59
   ac=37  pa=5  h/r=0.55 c/r=0.0850 d/r=21.59
   ac=36  pa=5  h/r=0.65 c/r=0.1075 d/r=25.75
   ac=35  pa=5  h/r=0.75 c/r=0.1350 d/r=30.09
   ac=34  pa=5  h/r=0.85 c/r=0.1550 d/r=34.17
   ac=33  pa=5  h/r=0.95 c/r=0.1750 d/r=38.25
   ac=32  pa=5  h/r=1.10 c/r=0.2025 d/r=44.28
   ac=31  pa=5  h/r=1.25 c/r=0.2350 d/r=50.49
   ac=30  pa=5  h/r=1.40 c/r=0.2725 d/r=56.87
   ac=29  pa=5  h/r=1.55 c/r=0.3025 d/r=62.98
   ac=28  pa=5  h/r=1.70 c/r=0.3325 d/r=69.11
   ac=27  pa=5  h/r=1.90 c/r=0.3700 d/r=77.18
   ac=26  pa=5  h/r=2.10 c/r=0.4125 d/r=85.42
   ac=25  pa=5  h/r=2.30 c/r=0.4600 d/r=93.84
   ac=24  pa=5  h/r=2.45 c/r=0.4900 d/r=99.96
   ac=23  pa=5  h/r=2.60 c/r=0.5200 d/r=106.08
   ac=22  pa=5  h/r=2.75 c/r=0.5500 d/r=112.20
   ac=21  pa=5  h/r=2.90 c/r=0.5800 d/r=118.32
   ac=20  pa=5  h/r=3.05 c/r=0.6100 d/r=124.44

No real difference ... so if you blow a 7th level spell you can equal the damage of a fairly pedestrian melee build. Yes the EK can get buffed ... but those buffs can be dispelled and the fighter can just as easily get buffed by others.

 

[Remathilis]

I fixed RSoP by removing martial weapon prof, 1/2ing the radius of positive energy burst, and reducing extra greater turning from 3+cha to just +Cha.

 

[pawsplay]

By the Way, what are people's takes on using the Domain Spontaneity (Healing) Feat in conjunction with the Maximized/Empowered Healing the Radiant Servant gets? Shouldn't those two work together to give the Radiant Servant more healing than just what he's got in his domain slots?

By the RAW, a domain spell is by defiinition one prepared in a domain spell slot.

 

[Feldspar]

Most PrCs are, in my view, fairly weak. The Bladesinger, for instance, is less impressive at what it does than a Fig/Wiz/Duelist/EK who simply uses Still Spell and Quicken Spell a lot.

Remember with Duelist that the Int bonus to AC cannot exceed your current Duelist level. I've thought about running a Swashbuckler/Bladesinger/ Spellsword - at 20th level it gets int to damage and AC, a d8 hit die average, 19 BAB, Song of Fury giving an extra attack Rapid Shot style, light armor usage, some spell channeling ... a nice little mix I think.

An EK heavy "gish" build would have more caster levels and spell power overall, but I think that my bladesinger would be a better melee combatant. Interesting to compare that build to a Duskblade ... Duskblade probably has better offense as well, but the Bladesinger has more spell versatility and survivability with access to spells like Fly, Blur, Mirror Image and Displacement, Greater Invisibility, etc.