Pre-Painted Miniatures are back!

[MerricB]

Yet DDM has failed in three different incarnations and Mage Knight has had issues, while LA is still producing new models.

DDM sold 1,000,000 minatures in the first few months. That's not failure. As an ongoing product, it did really well for the first few years, then the market place became saturated until finally the sales no longer were there... seven years later.

Mage Knight is dead, and has been for years (since 2005). A number of issues killed it, not limited to the woeful game balance of the game the figures were for, and the game's rebooting. HeroClix is still going, but it took a year or two off production as WizKids was folded. Yes, there's a "WizKids" in business now, but I don't know what relation it has to the old. (Name recognition only?)

LA has been going now for four years. It sells an extremely limited range of figures, and to say that Reaper has had problems getting new minis out understates the matter. It hasn't yet had the longevity of either DDM (7 years) or MageKnight (5 years).

This isn't to say that LA isn't a sustainable, successful product line, for it certainly is. It's certainly more sustainable than the DDM line, but it will never approach the profits that DDM pulled in.

 

[Zaukrie]

Four minis? Bummer, I was jonesing for about 40 new minis.....

I can't believe we are still arguing about ddm, random packaging, and all the other stuff......we are getting new minis, that's cool.

 

[MerricB]

Four minis? Bummer, I was jonesing for about 40 new minis.....

I can't believe we are still arguing about ddm, random packaging, and all the other stuff......we are getting new minis, that's cool.

Four character minis will definitely help those getting into RPGing through the Pathfinder Intro set. The first revealed looks really attractive.

It's probably no surprise that they do little for me... but I have enough character minis to last me a while longer unless one comes out that is just perfect for my current character.

Lisa Stephens posted an interesting tidbit on the Paizo boards:

Questioner (Sketchpad):
For example, maybe something like:
Encounter At Goblin's Pass
GameMastery Encounter Set • $19.99
While traveling on the road, the adventurers stumbled across a goblin raiding party. Included in this set are: 8 Goblins, 1 Goblin Dog, 1 Goblin Sorcerer, 1 Elite Goblin and a GameMastery map tile unique to this set, as well as a brief encounter that could be used in any PFRPG Campaign.

Lisa Stephens:
My guess is that a set like that would have a $29.99 price point or thereabouts. It is MUCH more costly to do nonrandomized sets like this, so the price would have to go up to match. Maybe even $34.99. Not sure how many people would buy a set like that at such a high price point, which is why you don't see these types of products being made.

Original post here: paizo.com - Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / General Discussion / Pathfinder Pre-Painted Plastic Minis

Cheers!

 

[pawsplay]

DDM sold 1,000,000 minatures in the first few months. That's not failure. As an ongoing product, it did really well for the first few years, then the market place became saturated until finally the sales no longer were there... seven years later.

If you lose one penny per mini, that's a $10,000 failure, plus whatever opportunity costs.

LA has been going now for four years. It sells an extremely limited range of figures, and to say that Reaper has had problems getting new minis out understates the matter. It hasn't yet had the longevity of either DDM (7 years) or MageKnight (5 years).

This isn't to say that LA isn't a sustainable, successful product line, for it certainly is. It's certainly more sustainable than the DDM line, but it will never approach the profits that DDM pulled in.

I think there's little doubt the first couple of DDM lines were profitable; I really wonder about the rest.

As for being "extremely limited," LA currently has 35 products. It covers most of what I use in low to mid level adventures, with the exception mainly of worgs.

 

[MerricB]

I think there's little doubt the first couple of DDM lines were profitable; I really wonder about the rest.

Can you imagine Hasbro/Wizards continuing to produce these minis if they *weren't* profitable? For seven years?

The line dropped into trouble in 2008 (5 years after it started, and about 16 sets in) when the DDM 2 rules came out and D&D 4E started. At this point, Feywild (which would have been set #18) was cancelled, and they went to the visible mini strategy - definitely a sign of the line on the wane.

Three "visible" sets were made, the line rested for about a year, and finally Lords of Madness came out, hoping to recapture the original success. It didn't and was the final set (#21).

As for being "extremely limited," LA currently has 35 products. It covers most of what I use in low to mid level adventures, with the exception mainly of worgs.

Sadly, "35 products" is slightly misleading, as some are packs of three of existing minis. Once you ignore duplicate poses, you get down to 25 monsters.

(Kobold, Rat, Dwarf, Gnoll, Unicorn, Dragon, Vampire, Gargoyle, Goblin, Werewolf, Bugbear, Spider, Zombie, Orc, Skeleton, Mind Flayer, Human Warrior, Female Ranger, Great Worm, Evil Warrior, Minotaur, Elf Archer, Ghost, Troll, Ogre)

Is that a good list of figures? Absolutely! I'm rather curious as to how many Unicorns and Great Worm figures they've sold...

Cheers!

 

[pawsplay]

Can you imagine Hasbro/Wizards continuing to produce these minis if they *weren't* profitable? For seven years?

If they kept coming up with harebrained new scans that management was willing to try? Sure. Because that makes more sense than assuming WotC kept messing with a formula that was working.

The line dropped into trouble in 2008 (5 years after it started, and about 16 sets in) when the DDM 2 rules came out and D&D 4E started. At this point, Feywild (which would have been set #18) was cancelled, and they went to the visible mini strategy - definitely a sign of the line on the wane.

DDM 2 rules came out partially as a result of problems with the line. Someone identified that the problem was that the morale rules made some players cry, and the figures needed more "exception-based" goofy special movies. Of course, that did not turn out to the solution after all. Not long after, DDM was effectively orphaned as a minis game line and focused more purely on RPG stuff, only to begin a long, slow slide into irrelevance.

I think with 4e's powers approach and the cards and other new hardware, plus the DDI, WotC finally managed to capture those players they were after, but long after failing to do so with a flailing attempt at revivifying the minis game.

Three "visible" sets were made, the line rested for about a year, and finally Lords of Madness came out, hoping to recapture the original success. It didn't and was the final set (#21).

That failure wasn't hard to predict. They already lost the Harbinger superfans, then managed to lose any lingering 3e players by producing, for the first time in D&D history, a large percentage of minis mostly irrelevant for players of previous editions, and of course bet the whole line on selling minis to the 4e crowd (whom they had already previously identified as being interested in PC options, inexpensive ongoing subscriptions, and bite-sized purchases, and hence the worst possible market for a randomized set of monster minis).

Sadly, "35 products" is slightly misleading, as some are packs of three of existing minis. Once you ignore duplicate poses, you get down to 25 monsters.

Well, if you order them at different times, you can get cool repaints, which is something.

(Kobold, Rat, Dwarf, Gnoll, Unicorn, Dragon, Vampire, Gargoyle, Goblin, Werewolf, Bugbear, Spider, Zombie, Orc, Skeleton, Mind Flayer, Human Warrior, Female Ranger, Great Worm, Evil Warrior, Minotaur, Elf Archer, Ghost, Troll, Ogre)

Is that a good list of figures? Absolutely! I'm rather curious as to how many Unicorns and Great Worm figures they've sold...

Cheers!

You didn't count the multiple poses of the same creature. For instance, there are three skeletons. I wish there were multiple gnoll poses...

I don't have a unicorn, as I just happen to have the equivalent sculpt in metal, but I can tell you who owns a Great Worm. I love gigantic, eyeless worms.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Reaper has definitely had problems with LA - including being unhappy with the paint jobs of the original run, slow response times on both ends of the production chain, and a few, umm, odd choices. The great Worm is one of the few that I own - but one is quite enough. The odds of my attacking the party with a swarm of Violet Supermegadriles are fairly slim. (Though I also own the DDM Purple Worm. The other DDM figures I own are a bunch of Rhemoraz, Strangle Vines, Chuul (for use as Mirelurks in Fallout), and a single Orcus as payment for repainting its twin....)

I suspect, but could be completely wrong, that the death of competitions for DDM is what killed the line - that the Rare, Uncommon, Common approach was not great for folks who just wanted minis for their RPGs.

Sad fact - I have more WotC plastic minis now than when the DDM line was alive. I have one each of the two board games, and the figures from those board games are available cheap, and since I paint my own minis anyway....

I like painting minis, any prepainting is going to be worse than I can do for myself, and just ends up gumming up the detail. Glad to see this starter set, but if it is for the four Iconics that I expect... I already have them in metal.

The Auld Grump

 

[pawsplay]

Reaper has definitely had problems with LA - including being unhappy with the paint jobs of the original run, slow response times on both ends of the production chain, and a few, umm, odd choices.

Yes, that's true. But things got better, and the somewhat slower new product schedule seems to be working.

The great Worm is one of the few that I own - but one is quite enough. The odds of my attacking the party with a swarm of Violet Supermegadriles are fairly slim.

That's what I used to think before I had access to inexpensive, nearly endless numbers of Great Worms. Now, I'm just looking for an excuse, so I can buy more worms...

I suspect, but could be completely wrong, that the death of competitions for DDM is what killed the line - that the Rare, Uncommon, Common approach was not great for folks who just wanted minis for their RPGs.

I think you are right. The minis gamers may have been a smaller segment, but they kept the boosters moving. As I said above, random boosters are inextricably connected with collection for collecting's sake. A minis gamer may actually have a use for a figure specifically because it is uncommon. So the minis kept the prices up and the product moving, the collectors went along with it because they are collectors, and the RPG-oriented buyers bought a few pieces here and there, and gritted their teeth and paid premium for collectable figures if they wanted something specific in mind.

Once the minis game dwindled, RPG players and collectors no longer had a high-cash market for unloading their duplicates and unwanteds. Similarly, the ridiculously underpriced "fistful o' orcs" that ended up on Ebay stopped flowing from the hands of sated minis gamers to the tables of RPG players in need of orc platoons.

Ultimately, as seemingly with a lot of people, the whole thing drove me back to painting metals. I'm a mediocre painter, but I like being able to just buy what I want. To someone like me, LA is a lifeline. I can buy half my figures through LA, and then make up the rest through a combination of metals, DDM remainders, and Mage Knight conversions. I don't spend too much time or money, and I don't end up with too many Farmer Browns, Vilesmooch Backbreathers, Realmsians who look like a Styx cover band, or Lord Soths. Getting Lord Soths is pretty frustrating. I don't particularly want a death knight holding a torch, but on the other hand, it's a pain to sell a potentially valuable rare figure who nonetheless may lack a buyer for any given auction. So I end up trying to speculate on the market for Soths, when I don't care for the figure and am indifferent about the character in the first place.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Once the minis game dwindled, RPG players and collectors no longer had a high-cash market for unloading their duplicates and unwanteds. Similarly, the ridiculously underpriced "fistful o' orcs" that ended up on Ebay stopped flowing from the hans of sated minis gamers to the tables of RPG players in need of orc platoons.

I think that a Mantic orc army box that I ordered will handle my orcish needs for quite some time. If you are not that fond of painting then you may want to look at them - Mantic intends their miniatures for 'Big Armies' and makes them easy to paint to help fill that niche. Most are plastic, leaders are metal, and a few odd choices are 'hybrids' - plastic bodies with metal bits.

An army box gives me a crapload of orcs, armed with axes, great axes, and dual wielding axes (and on or two swords). Orc wizard, orc leader and bodyguards mounted on dire boars. I posted about them a while back, when I ordered my orcish horde.

30 orcs for $45... armies are less expensive per figure.

I was very happy with their undead line as well, their metal liche is one of the most entertaining recent figures to paint and base - he is in the process of animating a skeleton, which is exploding from the ground. A decent paint job is easy on the figure, and just a little effort on flocking the base can really make it stand out.

I mounted mine on a 40mm base, with room to cram on another skeleton coming out of the dirt.

The Auld Grump

 

[TheAuldGrump]

[MENTION=58416]Johnny3D3D[/MENTION] - I wish that I could claim credit for that paint job. That is Mantic's own bit of painting. Mine was similar, but without the illumination effect and the addition of black and white checked edging. (Stolen pretty much from the works of Arthur Rackham. That figure, for me at least, has a bit of a Rackham feel, and I don't mean Rackham Miniatures (may they rest in peace) - he was fond of wrinkly clothing.)

I personally like my Liche King better, but theirs took much more technical expertise.

The Auld Grump