Predict this encounter

[monboesen]

As to the question. In general Giants are easy prey for any mind affecting magic. They have pretty crappy will saves and a Hold monster is likely to be the end of it. Without magical back-up or surprise on their side those two giants should have been a relatively easy encounter.

 

[Rystil Arden]

If we were doing immersive RPing, table time is approximately the same as in game time when it comes to conversing. How can one argue against in game talking taking as long as table time talking?

It wasn't clearly apparent to me that this is what took all the time (if it was, then absolutely!). Sometimes, it's metagame stuff:

"Bob, can't you pray for a spell while we're waiting?"
"What spell are you thinking?"
"I dunno, it's that one...in the Spell Compendium. I forget the name. Can you get me the Spell Compendium?"
"I don't see it. I see the Draconomicon."
"Why is that over there with you guys and not behind the screen?"
"Oh, remember--Bill has that unfair Spell Resistance killer spell from there and I have the feat that gets through DR."
"Oh yeah, right."
"I still don't see the Spell Compendium."
"Try looking harder."
"I've searched all the books."
"Well it should be there."
"It's not there."
"You're an idiot. Let me check that--oh wait, I was using it as flat surface to write on."
"Who's the dumbass now?"
"Shut up Bob. Okay, it was a level 2 spell, let me check the list."
"Was it Transmutation?"
"No, hush. I'm looking."
"Was it Necromancy?"
"No Tim, shut up! Do Paladins even have Necromancy spells on their list."
"Not all Necromancers are evil. Remember that Eberron elf Necromancer girl I made that had 20 Charisma and..."
"Shut up Bill!"
"Okay, I think it was..."
"I cast Magic Missile at the Darkness!"
"Mike..."
"What?"
"That was funny the first time we heard it online, but it's not funny now."
"Awww...okay. Can we teleport?"
"We're looking in the Spell Compendium."
"Okay."
GM: "That's 30 minutes, so it passed in character too. Your spell is gone."

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Wow, that sounds like every group I've ever played with. Ever.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Wow, that sounds like every group I've ever played with. Ever.

Me too--I was hoping it would be realistic and a bit funny at the same time to help illustrate my point

 

[Infiniti2000]

It's too realistic to be funny.

And, get your rassafrassin' microphone outta my house!

 

[Quasqueton]

GM: "That's 30 minutes, so it passed in character too. Your spell is gone."

Out of curiosity, I just now read that conversation – 55 seconds.

Sure, some of that kind of thing goes on at our table, too, but not 30 solid minutes. In this case, maybe 20% of the conversation was out of character and/or off topic. And maybe 10% was looking up a rule. (My game is core only, so we don’t have the book overload problem.)

It used to be worse, when we had 7 people at the table, but now with just 4, it is much better.

And I take such things into account when “timing” the game. It’s all kind of by feel.

Quasqueton

 

[Rystil Arden]

And, get your rassafrassin' microphone outta my house!

Bwahahaha! You'll never find it

Out of curiosity, I just now read that conversation – 55 seconds.

Admittedly. Add in some short breaks in between some of those sentences looking for books and it's more though. Quite possibly that exchange could take three to five minutes, which is anywhere from 10% to 16.6666% of the entire time, just to check for that spell.

And I take such things into account when “timing” the game. It’s all kind of by feel.

I think that's a good idea, and I think that's what most people do too. It's not the "real time == game time" thing that you said that every group you've ever seen has played (when you said that, you made me think of the stopwatch and calling time immediately after thirty minutes, no matter how much of the time was OOC chatter or rules look-up), since they aren't being equated. I think this is perfectly fair. The only thing I would do differently was to give a five-minute (or some other short interval), as your players might not be getting the same feel and it prevents them from being blindsided. That said, you even gave your players the ultimate ultimatum: "Roll initiative" and they still didn't get off their asses and stop arguing in-character, so it was completely their faults.

 

[Quasqueton]

It's not the "real time == game time" thing that you said that every group you've ever seen has played (when you said that, you made me think of the stopwatch and calling time immediately after thirty minutes, no matter how much of the time was OOC chatter or rules look-up), since they aren't being equated.

I see I didn’t explain the concept very well in the beginning.

Every game I’ve ever experienced, from either side of the DM screen, has used the concept:

Talking, debating, arguing, convincing, etc. in character is real time = game time. If you sit there and talk the plan to death for an hour real time, then an hour has passed game time.

If you come up to the BBEG’s door and start talking strategy for the assault, time does not stop for you. If you spend 5 minutes talking plans around the table, your PCs have spent 5 minutes talking plans.

Any time used to take care of game stuff – looking up a spell your wizard has prepared, checking the range on your bow, asking the DM if you hear anything behind the door, etc. – is not “charged against” the game time.

But there has never been any kind of stopwatch situation. It’s always just a guestimate. It's not a 2 = 2 kind of thing, but rather a ~2 = 2 kind of thing.

I have been a Player in a game where our group stopped in the middle of a dungeon corridor and argued about who was going to carry the magic item we just found. I don’t know how long we argued, but it seemed to be all in character. (I’d guestimate was about 30 minutes.) The DM had the enemies ahead prepare for our arrival, and we got beaten back. No one complained that the DM measured game time by how much real time we screwed around arguing in the dungeon hall. The only comment was from us Players saying *we* were stupid for wasting time. For all concerned it was just a natural thing.

For instance, in the case in my OP, they were all talking, ostensibly in character, with very little rule book page turning. So real time very closely equaled game time. And no one thought it wrong.

This is why I thought it odd that some people here thought the concept was a house rule of some kind. I would think it odd and unnatural if a DM had time stop every time the Players started talking in character.

Quasqueton

 

[Rystil Arden]

This is why I thought it odd that some people here thought the concept was a house rule of some kind. I would think it odd and unnatural if a DM had time stop every time the Players started talking in character.

I think everyone who said that thought you were doing the thing where all metagame time, including rules lookup and chatter, counted for in game time. That said, since they were having an in-character discussion, it only makes sense to advance time in character. As a corollary, I would frankly like to issue an amazed congratulations that your group spent 30 of the 40 minutes with in-game discussion. For me (and it seems others based on responses to my example), it would be at most half if I was very very lucky. Although your group may have been RPing like idiots tactically, their RP-fu is strong, so you do have at least something for which to be thankful

 

[ThirdWizard]

This is interesting. My group doesn't typically look up rules while making plans (where to go next, what tactics to use, etc). Well sometimes they look through books while talking, but they don't look them up to help with the discussion at hand. Perhaps we're less micro-managing than most. If we think using web would be a good idea, we'll discuss it, but we won't look up the area, duration, or how much fire damage you take inside a lit one. We'll just say to make sure to prepare it so we can use it.

Do others micro-manage like this?