Preferences for giving XP for non battles, i.e. diplomacy, stealth, subterfuge etc.

Thebalrog

First Post
In a campaign Im writing, Im really looking to stay away from the general dungeon crawl hack n slash.

I know there are alot of DM's out there that don't even give xp based on monsters anymore. I was wondering about this and also how you determine xp for non combat victories such as diplomacy, negotiation, stealth, subterfuge, investigation and/or detective work or even those times when the party is smart enough to NOT wake up the dragon and just go around it. :)

What are some of the particular preferences out there?
 

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Al

First Post
I think that the answer is probably in constructive interpretation of the word 'defeat' when in the context of 'defeat an enemy and gain XP'.
Now, let us take a scenario. Orcish raiders are pillaging the town. The PCs could just go in with full plate gleaming and swords swinging and fell all the orcs. The gain an XP award.
Alternately, they could try to sneak past the guards, creep up on the chieftain and murder him. Again, I would rule full XP for 'defeating' the guards, and for 'defeating' the chieftain.
However, they could also negotiate their way past the guards, and seek an audience with the chieftain. Through clever wordplay mixed with appropriate diplomacy, they convince the orcish chieftain to live in harmony with the town. The threat is 'defeated' and full XP should be awarded for the negotiation and diplomacy: and you can throw in a roleplay XP award to boot.
Fundamentally, the DM awards XP as he sees fit: if you feel that diplomacy or stealth deserves an XP award, you award it.
 

nsruf

First Post
I don't give out "kill XP" at all. Instead, I rate PC/player performance in each session on a scale of 1-10 and multiply by some factor to convert to the D&D XP-scale.

Performance takes into account danger, achievement and roleplaying (+0 to +3 points in each category) and 1 base point is awarded for player attendance (PCs of absent players can only earn 0-3 danger XP). So there is nothing gained by simply slaughtering enemies, unless this constitutes a real challenge (danger) or is a story goal (achievement).

For the factor, I use

(adventure level + 1) * 50 XP,

where "adventure level" is usually the party level, i.e. an overall CR.

Technically, the advancement speed suggested in the DMG would be achieved by

adventure level * 60 XP,

but I prefer faster advancement for low level characters and slower for high level ones.

So far, the PCs in my campaign have levelled up about every 3.5 play sessions, which seems about right.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
If you have d20 Call of Cthulhu, there is an excellent section on deciding what are the key parts of the adventure and giving experience for each of those key parts. For a campaign that wasn't designed to be combat heavy there is several pages of excellent advice.

---

As a side issue, I have one problem with the idea of giving equivalent xps if an encounter is bypassed by combat and by sneaking. Why? Because combat involves very many die rolls, and uses up resources (spells, hit points), while the sneaking or diplomatic route typically involves just one or two skill rolls with much less risk involved. (not all the time, granted, but typically).

I think that d20 would really benefit from a "skills combat" system - something that could be used to handle a skills-related situation with several rolls rather than one single make-or-break roll.

As an example where this is done at the moment, consider climbing a cliff. To the climb the cliff is a task which requires travelling a certain amount of feet (say 100ft). Each skill check means that you travel your normal climb speed (say 10ft), are stuck where you are (failed roll) or fall (failed roll by 5+).

Now, wouldn't it be interesting to introduce the same kind of process for disarming traps? Rather than a once-for-all roll to succeed or fail, there could be traps which are hair-trigger (all or nothing rolls), or multi-part traps which have several components, all of which need to be disarmed (requiring, say, 5 disarm rolls to complete, with a failure by 5+ setting the trap off).

A similar kind of approach could be used for diplomatic efforts, where both parties might be using diplomacy to attempt to score points off one another, and rather than a simple check to see who wins, both parties compete until one of them fails by 5+, or until one of them has improved a running score by a certain amount.

I realise that I'm veering into house-rules territory here, but I think that it would be a logical harmonisation of some of the skill rules to enable skill-based encounters to be as long and involving as combat encounters (and thus valid as an equal source of xps)

Cheers
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Lessons from Mario Bros.

Divide the Adventure into 'Stages' find the average CR of ALL encounters in a single stage - this is the CR for the Stage

*Stage CR = Monster+Trap+NPC level+'Other'/Total Encounters

XP = Stage CR + completion bonus(?) + Boss bonus(?) + story bonus(?)

eg Orcish raiders are pillaging the town.

Stage 1: Protect the Town
Stage 2: Get Pass Guards
Stage 3: Stop the Orc Chieftain

I'd give a story bonus for making peace with the Orcs (thus gaining a new ally for future RPing) but NOT for killing them
I'd also give Completion bonuses for Stages 2 and 3 and a Boss bonus for the Orc Chieftain (ie full XP for 'defeating him)
 

Rel

Liquid Awesome
XP system used by Rel

First, I must note that most of the credit for this system should go to the player who runs Speaks with Stone in my current campaign. He originally designed it to replace the clunky xp system for Rolemaster and since then, he and I have both tweaked and refined it. It works like this:

First, there's a chart that looks sort of like this:

___Combat_________________________________________
___Enchantment____________________________________
___Creation_______________________________________
___Skills_________________________________________
___Puzzle_________________________________________
___Sacrifice______________________________________
___Learned________________________________________
___Character______________________________________
___Goal__________________________________________
___Social_________________________________________

___x X

The players each have a copy of this chart for every session. As we go along they write down things that their character has done in a particular category in the big blank to the right.

At the end of the session, they give me the sheets and I "grade their papers". In doing so, I will put "tic marks" in the small blanks to the left if they have fulfilled the requirements for the category. At the bottom I total up all the marks they received and then apply a multiplier based on their current level (represented by the X in the chart above). Currently, the formula I use for the multiplier is 50+(character level x 15).

On average, I'd say the players get around 7 marks per session. If a 5th level player gets 7 marks they would get 875 experience points for the session (the multiplier for a 5th level character is 125 per the above formula).

In practice this meant that it took around 3 sessions for everyone to make 2nd level. On average, it has taken approximately one session longer to reach each of the successive levels than it did to get to 2nd (i.e. 4 more session to make 3rd, 5 more sessions to make 4th, etc.).

When I say that 7 marks is average for a session, I mean precisely that. There have been sessions where some characters only got 4 or 5 marks. And there have been some sessions where they got 10 or 11 marks. It all depends on how involved you are in the game.

Let me give a few details about how I grade the various categories.

Combat - I usually give out one mark for every "minor" combat the group takes part in and two for a "major" combat. These are rather subjective definitions but I'm comfortable with them.

Enchantment - If a character casts at least half their normal spell allotment or uses the powers of most of their magic items, I give them a mark here. If a character goes through their whole spell selection more than once, I usually give them a second point. It has been argued that this category heavily favors the spell casters over the non spell casters but there are other categories that the spell casters are not as likely to get so that doesn't bother me. YMMV.

Creation - The characters get points here for using any craft skills to create things in the game. Sometimes I have given a point if one character in particular was the mastermind of an elaborate plan. Also, I give points here if the player contributes to the game in a material way, such as painting figures, drawing maps for areas of the campaign the characters know about or bringing extensive background material about a topic important to the game (perhaps some stuff they found about Roman architecture, ancient weaponry, mining techniques or anything else that helps bring detail and life to the campaign).

Skills - This is the category the Rogues love. If a character uses most of their skills during a session, they get credit for it here, provided they aren't already getting credit for it elsewhere.

Puzzle - This category represents the character solving a puzzle in game. It applies to elaborate traps and to unraveling the sinister plot of the evil mastermind. I should mention that I don't have that many elaborate traps in my campaign and the evil masterminds are pretty good at hiding their plots so I don't wind up handing out many points in this category.

Sacrifice - This represents heroism in the face of bad odds, putting your character at risk for innocents or helpless party members or giving up something for the greater good. This is one category in which the fighter types tend to outperform the spell casters.

Learned - This category reflects new information that the party has uncovered that is of general interest or specific importance to the plot. This is one that they get credit for almost every session.

Character - This is another point they should be getting every session because it reflects how they portray the personality of their character. Exhibiting the quirks, flaws and peculiarities of your character will always get you a point here. If you have a session where the quintessential personality of your character is captured in almost every scene, you'll get two points here.

Goal - Characters get points here for accomplishing major party goals as well as minor goals the character sets for themselves. I have the players tell me their goals in advance (or else they don't get credit for them) which gives me an indicator as to which way the campaign will likely be headed.

Social - They get credit mostly for interacting with NPC's in meaningful ways. I don't usually give credit for interactions within the party but I sometimes will if one of the characters shares a story or other details from their background that the other party members didn't already know.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: This system may not work for everyone! But I think it has several things going for it that work really well for me and the group I game with.

First, I never have to use the CR system in the DMG to figure out xp. I don't have to crack a book while I'm giving out experience because everything I need is on their sheet or in my head.

Second, it rewards the players for doing things besides combat. If some kind of encounter is important to the campaign, the players don't feel any need to rush through it to get to the combat. They know that they will be rewarded so long as what they're doing is relevant to the story, whether it be fighting monsters, conducting a diplomatic mission, celebrating the birthday of a loved one or doing espionage.

Third, it keeps the players focused on the game if they record stuff on these sheets during play. They may notice that they haven't put anything in the blank next to "Character" yet and that reminds them that they should be putting more of their character's personality into the session. If they haven't put anything in the "Goal" category yet, maybe they need to focus on what the group is trying to accomplish and not get side tracked by looting a room full of dead goblins.

Anyhow, if you have any more questions about the system, I'll be happy to answer them and you're obviously free to use it if you like.
 
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Psion

Adventurer
I used to assign all sorts of encounters CRs and just use the normal XP system. I soon fount that was tedious and considering the kinds of challenges my players face, often led to faster leaps in XP than I was comfortable with.

Now what I do is this:

Figure a party average level, rounded to the nearest level.

For a session, the base award is:

50 XP per hour per average party level.

This is modified by:

1) Difficulty: Adjust XP by +/- 25 percent depending on difficulty of the adventure.
2) Goals: Adjust XP by +/- 25 percent depending on how much progress the characters make toward the campaign's goals

This is then modified individually by:
1) Player contributions: if the player comes up with an especially productive idea or keen observation, or otherwise helps more the game along or make it more memorable, I award a 5% bonus per incident. My criteria is stringent enought that usually only 1 or 2 players will earn this award, and earning this award twice in the same session is rare.
2) Character level: Much like FR, I compensate for character level; this makes level loss less of a punishment and makes creating magic items (or otherwise expending XP) less daunting. If a character is below the party average level, they get 20% extra XP. If they are above the party average level, the PC gets 20% less.
 

Stormdale

Explorer
I’m trialing a new system with my group.

At the end of the session I give a base of 1000xps for turning up to the game! For good role-playing problem solving & excellent play that can get a bonus of 500xp, for poor play they get a penalty of 500xp. I am also contemplating a story award of 500xp for successfully achieving adventure goals but haven’t introduced it yet- I’ve only been testing this system for a couple of weeks. This is more in tune with the old 1E DMG style of rating players performance. By rewarding good & penalising poor play I hope to eventually encourage them to improve their play.


It should slow advancement down to a level I’m happier with (more in tune with my old 1E/2E games) and the players don’t have to worry about killing everything in sight. Last week they even paid a giant a toll rather than kill him as there was no benefit for killing him outright any more. At the end of our game on Wednesday night, one player was 300xp short of another level. "Can’t I just go and find a dwarf to kill to get those xps?" "Sorry, you’ll have to wait until next week." That type of behavious is what I’m hoping to stamp out.

This system is not as complicated as some systems, but I am a firm believer in the keep it simple principle, I’ve enough problems trying to keep track of monster stats without worrying about xps as well. I’m hoping it will give pcs a chance to slow down and enjoy each level and make advancement a bit more meaningful too. We’ll just have to wait and see how it goes though.
 

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