Preparing spells every 8 hours?
- Thread starter Conaill
- Start date
I think I'll throw a wrinkle into this debate. What about the spell
Remove Fatigue from Oriental Adventures?
The spell states that you don't need to sleep for 24 hours if you are not already fatigued, as per the description of fatigued in the DMG.
So for those extremely munchkin types, you would not suffer circadian rhythem penalties, and only need restful calm instead of sleep. I guess I should state here that I realize that some people think that multimple prep sessions per day is ok not because they are munchkins, but because they are confused.
Even though I play a Shaman, and would love to have more spells per day, I thought it was obvious that the Spells per Day are based on a 24 hour cycle. The term 'day' would vary from character to character, depending on when they prepped spells.
Example:
Bob the Cleric's normal prep time for spells (when his mind is considered 'fresh') is at dawn. Therefore, his 'day' resets at dawn.
Joe the Wizard's normal prep time for spells is dusk (when his mind is considered fresh). Therefore his 'day' resets at dusk.
It helps to reason through this argument if you realize that the term spells per day is not talking about a midnight to midnight cycle, but a spell prep (fresh) to spell prep (fresh) cycle. The period is still 24 hours long.
Now consider this:
Even a munchkin player is going to not argue that a spell with a 10 minute cast time takes......10 minutes to cast. So why does spells per day....that is spells per 24 hour period, not follow the same rule?
From the SRD:
Once the character has cast a prepared spell, the character can't cast it again until it is prepared again. (If the character has prepared multiple copies of a single spell, each copy can be cast only once.) If the character is a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against the character's daily limit for spells of that level, but the character can cast the same spell again if the character hasn't reached his or her limit.
Key phrase=daily limit. This post is long enough for now.
Remove Fatigue from Oriental Adventures?
The spell states that you don't need to sleep for 24 hours if you are not already fatigued, as per the description of fatigued in the DMG.
So for those extremely munchkin types, you would not suffer circadian rhythem penalties, and only need restful calm instead of sleep. I guess I should state here that I realize that some people think that multimple prep sessions per day is ok not because they are munchkins, but because they are confused.
Even though I play a Shaman, and would love to have more spells per day, I thought it was obvious that the Spells per Day are based on a 24 hour cycle. The term 'day' would vary from character to character, depending on when they prepped spells.
Example:
Bob the Cleric's normal prep time for spells (when his mind is considered 'fresh') is at dawn. Therefore, his 'day' resets at dawn.
Joe the Wizard's normal prep time for spells is dusk (when his mind is considered fresh). Therefore his 'day' resets at dusk.
It helps to reason through this argument if you realize that the term spells per day is not talking about a midnight to midnight cycle, but a spell prep (fresh) to spell prep (fresh) cycle. The period is still 24 hours long.
Now consider this:
Even a munchkin player is going to not argue that a spell with a 10 minute cast time takes......10 minutes to cast. So why does spells per day....that is spells per 24 hour period, not follow the same rule?
From the SRD:
Once the character has cast a prepared spell, the character can't cast it again until it is prepared again. (If the character has prepared multiple copies of a single spell, each copy can be cast only once.) If the character is a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against the character's daily limit for spells of that level, but the character can cast the same spell again if the character hasn't reached his or her limit.
Key phrase=daily limit. This post is long enough for now.
IceBear
Explorer
I'm not confused. I know the proper ruling is B. But as I thought about it, it might give the wizard some extra flavor if he could re-learn his spells after 8 hours of rest (and I would keep it at 8 hours regardless of magic). The sorcerer gets his magical power from within, and thus he needs 24 hours to replenish this power. The cleric gets his magic from his deity at the same time every day by prayer - thus, the same restriction.
A wizard gets his spells through study, after a period of time to clear his mind. So, option A adds some different flavor to the wizard. Is it an official rule? I'd say no. Is it an unbalancing rule? I don't think so (if the amount of time required to clear your mind is kept at 8 hours), for the reasons given already (Basically in most cases if you are going to go back and rest for 8hours it's glossed over just like if you went back for 24).
IceBear
A wizard gets his spells through study, after a period of time to clear his mind. So, option A adds some different flavor to the wizard. Is it an official rule? I'd say no. Is it an unbalancing rule? I don't think so (if the amount of time required to clear your mind is kept at 8 hours), for the reasons given already (Basically in most cases if you are going to go back and rest for 8hours it's glossed over just like if you went back for 24).
IceBear
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Resting every 8 hrs not overpowered?!?
Anyone who thinks that option A is not overpowered has never really played a wizard!
Think about his, firs of all, at 10th level, you can cast every stat buff spell in the morning and go into the dungeon with +2-4 to every stat, and you didn't even need to spend a feat!
Cast Rary's Mnumonic Enhancer for all 4+ level spell slot 3x per day! You'll never need a wand again, because you have every 1-3rd level spell you know memorized 2-3 times!
Cast Greater magic weapon on the whole party, rest and go into the dungeon fully loaded!
etc, etc.
Now, you CAN do all of these things ONCE per day if you go by rule B. But if you do this then the wizard has to devote his whole spell selection for the day to this trick (meaning he has no significant attack spells that day). If he does this, then he had better be doing it at a safe base camp.
With Rule A, a 9th+ level wizard can just cast a rope trick, rest in complete safety, power up, cast another rope trick, power up, etc, etc. as much as he wants!
This is super uber powerfull!
Anyone who thinks that option A is not overpowered has never really played a wizard!
Think about his, firs of all, at 10th level, you can cast every stat buff spell in the morning and go into the dungeon with +2-4 to every stat, and you didn't even need to spend a feat!
Cast Rary's Mnumonic Enhancer for all 4+ level spell slot 3x per day! You'll never need a wand again, because you have every 1-3rd level spell you know memorized 2-3 times!
Cast Greater magic weapon on the whole party, rest and go into the dungeon fully loaded!
etc, etc.
Now, you CAN do all of these things ONCE per day if you go by rule B. But if you do this then the wizard has to devote his whole spell selection for the day to this trick (meaning he has no significant attack spells that day). If he does this, then he had better be doing it at a safe base camp.
With Rule A, a 9th+ level wizard can just cast a rope trick, rest in complete safety, power up, cast another rope trick, power up, etc, etc. as much as he wants!
This is super uber powerfull!
Amen Psifon!
If a Pearl of Power rests for 8 hours, can it recall more than one spell?
If people want to houserule option A they can. But it should be clear to people reading this post that option B is what the official rules state. I like adding flavor to campaigns with houserules, BTW, but I make it clear when I am posting what is a houserule and what is not.
If a Pearl of Power rests for 8 hours, can it recall more than one spell?
If people want to houserule option A they can. But it should be clear to people reading this post that option B is what the official rules state. I like adding flavor to campaigns with houserules, BTW, but I make it clear when I am posting what is a houserule and what is not.
Sigma said:
It's a "fair trade" to let wizards cast three times as many spells? Keep in mind that divine casters have much less flexibility on when they can prepare ("If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells."). Plus they have the same 8 hour Recent Casting Limit to deal with, and they still need to rest 8 hrs to avoid being fatigued (-2 to STR and DEX, can't run or charge).
OK, so now I am confused.
In your previous post you said "I think, by the rules, that option A is probably the most correct one".I thought it was clear as well. Unfortunately, the votes indicate otherwise: 1 out of 3 voters seem to think it's "obvious" that option A is the correct rule.
If we can all agree about one thing, it's that this rule is not as clear as it should be!
IceBear
Explorer
I got confused because I got A and B mixed up. I didn't go back and re-read the original post and assumed that the correct way of doing things (one once per 24 hours) was option A. 
Again, I do agree that option B is the way WotC intended spellcasters to work, but I'm thinking I'll allow option A for wizards in my campaign (that's the way the old Pool of Radiance computer games worked too if I remember for all spellcasters). I'd let wizards do that just because it "fits" with my campaign idea of how wizards work.
No, I don't think it's overpowered. I really doubt that allowing it will give a normal PC wizard three times the spells. Let's say that the party gets up at 8am and starts adventuring. So at 4pm the wizard wants to rest for 8 hours (and I would enforce that - regardles of magic items). Do you honestly think the rest of the party are going to want to sit around around doing nothing until midnight (don't forget your wandering monster rolls and timed events in your campaign) and then start adventuring again? I doubt it.
In my campaign, I see allowing this option as a way of changing the flavour of a wizard but having little real impact. My players, and I know them well, wouldn't wake up, buff up, and then rest for 8 hours to get attack spells and start wipng out the dungeon. I can use this option because I know my players very well and it wouldn't get abused. Obviously YMMV
A reason I think that a lot of people have the impression A is correct is because of D&D computer games - in those you just have to rest for 8 hours and tada! new spells.
IceBear
Again, I do agree that option B is the way WotC intended spellcasters to work, but I'm thinking I'll allow option A for wizards in my campaign (that's the way the old Pool of Radiance computer games worked too if I remember for all spellcasters). I'd let wizards do that just because it "fits" with my campaign idea of how wizards work.
No, I don't think it's overpowered. I really doubt that allowing it will give a normal PC wizard three times the spells. Let's say that the party gets up at 8am and starts adventuring. So at 4pm the wizard wants to rest for 8 hours (and I would enforce that - regardles of magic items). Do you honestly think the rest of the party are going to want to sit around around doing nothing until midnight (don't forget your wandering monster rolls and timed events in your campaign) and then start adventuring again? I doubt it.
In my campaign, I see allowing this option as a way of changing the flavour of a wizard but having little real impact. My players, and I know them well, wouldn't wake up, buff up, and then rest for 8 hours to get attack spells and start wipng out the dungeon. I can use this option because I know my players very well and it wouldn't get abused. Obviously YMMV
A reason I think that a lot of people have the impression A is correct is because of D&D computer games - in those you just have to rest for 8 hours and tada! new spells.
IceBear
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IceBear said:I didn't go back and re-read the original post and assumed that the correct way of doing things (one once per 24 hours) was option A.
Again, I do agree that option A is the way WotC intended spellcasters to work, [...]
Aargh! (if there were an exploding-head-smiley, this is where it would fit)
So... do you or don't you agree that "once per 24 hours" (that's option B) is the "official" rule.
IceBear
Explorer
I agree that B is the offical rule, BUT I would allow a house rule for A (only for wizards) in my campaign.
Sorry for the confusion, I see I goofed again in my last post so I edited it. I don't know why I keep getting A and B mixed up ( I guess, in my mind, I always put the "correct" answer first and the wrong second, so I always think that once per 24 hours is A)
I originally voted for A (once per 8 hours) because I didn't see it as being overbalanced, but I was looking at it from the point of view of my group of players. Seeing the munchkin abuses that others quickly pounced on, my group obviously has more restraint than others, and thus I now switch sides.
IceBear
Sorry for the confusion, I see I goofed again in my last post so I edited it. I don't know why I keep getting A and B mixed up ( I guess, in my mind, I always put the "correct" answer first and the wrong second, so I always think that once per 24 hours is A
)I originally voted for A (once per 8 hours) because I didn't see it as being overbalanced, but I was looking at it from the point of view of my group of players. Seeing the munchkin abuses that others quickly pounced on, my group obviously has more restraint than others, and thus I now switch sides.
IceBear
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Mark
CreativeMountainGames.com
"Spells per day" means "Spells per day". There is simply no other way to interpret this. I've seen some rules that are worded in such a way as to cause confusion but this is not one of those cases.
I'm sure there are house rules that change things in particular people's campaigns, and that's all well and good, but the 3E rules are explicit, the intention is clear, and the simple statement that there is a limit on "Spells per day" doesn't leave any wiggle room.
I've read the argumenets for opposing views but they only hold up if you assume that "Spells per day" doesn't mean exactly what it says. By that logic you might as well assume everything in the books is misprinted or erroneous on its face, and that doesn't seem to make any sense either.
I'm sure there are house rules that change things in particular people's campaigns, and that's all well and good, but the 3E rules are explicit, the intention is clear, and the simple statement that there is a limit on "Spells per day" doesn't leave any wiggle room.
I've read the argumenets for opposing views but they only hold up if you assume that "Spells per day" doesn't mean exactly what it says. By that logic you might as well assume everything in the books is misprinted or erroneous on its face, and that doesn't seem to make any sense either.
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