D&D 4E Presentation vs design... vs philosophy

[Oofta]

I didn't see where pemerton posted them, but searching on ye olde google sure isn't much help. I can easily find that blast affects x-squared number of squares in front of the source provided line of effect exists, where x is the blast's size (e.g. a blast-3 affects a 3x3 area, or 9 squares), and doesn't affect its source. But that's really about all I can find.

Can't quickly find any references to ammunition requirements; as the examples of how blast works all reference AoE spells or effects e.g. dragon breath or burning hands.

Re Blinding Barrage in particular, I did find that the per-hit-target damage was errataed down in 2011 to just be your Dex modifier instead of 2W, if that matters at all.

Reading that Blinding Barrage write-up literally, if I was strictly playing by RAW-to-the-letter I would have interpreted it the same way as Oofta: that you only need to throw one light weapon to get the effect because it specifically states "a light thrown weapon", not pluralized. More likely I'd have assumed this to be a typo, and houseruled it to state you need to be wielding (or at least have very quick access to) at least one for each target.

The only actual reference I found that directly relates to this question is, of all places, in an online google preview of Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition For Dummies (Slavicsek and Baker) where they in fact pluralize "daggers" in their short blurb about the power. (they rank it there as #5 in the top ten Rogue powers)

Just to be clear, we may have played it wrong from day 1 . This was an LFR PC, so multiple DMs missed it.

On the other hand magical daggers returned automatically so that may have overridden the general rule.

Which doesn't really change anything when it comes to the power. It's still pulling and throwing multiple daggers per second (assuming you did anything else during the round) or had to pull a Hawk the Slayer with a hand crossbow. Well, that and the only real reason it could be done once per day was game balance.

 

[Oofta]

Fine. Of course, no one is asking you to like 4e. My group moved on from it as well.

It would be nice though, in the future, if you could you please stop mis-representing facets of the game, though? I could see how someone would find one dagger hitting 9 people a turn-off, but then, the power doesn't do that with one dagger. Yet, you were/are arguing that it does. The game has enough faults; it doesn't need new ones manufactured through misconception, and then presented as real.

It was how we played it and how it was run under multiple DMs. It may have been a mistake but it was not a misrepresentation of how we (including a half dozen other LFR DMs) understood it to work. I'm not about to try to hunt down whether using a magical dagger changed anything, but with the wording of how all magical weapons returned instantaneously it may well have.

 

[Maxperson]

EDIT - The Rogue can actually do more than that. If its Elf (7 movement) and has feats/features (without a deep investment or real shenanigans) to augment their movement rate, they should be able to pull off around 22 squares or around 33 meters (a 7+ story building!) in those 6 seconds. So you're talking about pulling off the above feet, with about 20 lbs of gear, in about 2.5 seconds!.

Sure, but let me know when D&D PCs get a perfect wall to climb like that one and that they have practiced climbing hundreds of times before so that they know it well enough to climb that quickly.

That video is impressive, but it's not representative of what PCs go through when they climb a wall or other object.

 

[Maxperson]

Ah NOW I understand. You are making the mistake of confusing power with empowerment. The draft horse is almost certainly the most physically powerful animal on the farm. But the most empowered animal on the farm is the farmer. And me, I'm far more empowered by not having to wear bridle and tack and being able to climb trees when I want rather than made to pull a plough than I would be if I were forced to pull a plough. Even if I might get stronger by being forced to take excercise.

Empowerment is literally being given the authority or power to do something, so he didn't confuse anything. I also like how you had to limit the power to physical in order to change the most powerful animal on the farm from the farmer to the horse. The farmer is both the most empowered and the most powerful(due to the empowerment) on the farm. Assuming it's his farm anyway.

 

[Manbearcat]

Sure, but let me know when D&D PCs get a perfect wall to climb like that one and that they have practiced climbing hundreds of times before so that they know it well enough to climb that quickly.

That video is impressive, but it's not representative of what PCs go through when they climb a wall or other object.

Max, it may be difficult to discern by the video, but speedwalls are 5.10, meaning “totally unclimbable by normal people.”

My partner took up climbing 4.5 months ago. She’s 36 and a hugely accomplished athlete.

She just now completed her FIRST 5.10. There are tons of people at her gym who have been climbing far longer and are still 5.9 restricted.

 

[Maxperson]

Max, it may be difficult to discern by the video, but speedwalls are 5.10, meaning “totally unclimbable by normal people.”

My partner took up climbing 4.5 months ago. She’s 36 and a hugely accomplished athlete.

She just now completed her FIRST 5.10. There are tons of people at her gym who have been climbing far longer and are still 5.9 restricted.

Cool story, but practice and repetition still enable those guys to do that to those particular walls. PCs aren't going to be able to do that on random walls and such that they encounter, just as those guys wouldn't. Climb them sure. Climb them at those speeds, no.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Can't the same be said of 5E and of D&D in general???

This deserves its own thread as a spinoff so I'm writing one.

I didn't see where pemerton posted them, but searching on ye olde google sure isn't much help. I can easily find that blast affects x-squared number of squares in front of the source provided line of effect exists, where x is the blast's size (e.g. a blast-3 affects a 3x3 area, or 9 squares), and doesn't affect its source. But that's really about all I can find.

Can't quickly find any references to ammunition requirements; as the examples of how blast works all reference AoE spells or effects e.g. dragon breath or burning hands.

I can't remember which page of the thread it's on. But in the PHB the rules for attack types (melee/ranged/close/area) are on pages 270-271. For ranged attacks the requirement you use enough ammunition is the last paragraph of p270, for close attacks it's the last paragraph of the first column of p271, and for area attacks it's the last but one paragraph of the second paragraph of p271, directly above "provoke opportunity attacks".

Reading that Blinding Barrage write-up literally, if I was strictly playing by RAW-to-the-letter I would have interpreted it the same way as Oofta: that you only need to throw one light weapon to get the effect because it specifically states "a light thrown weapon", not pluralized.

Strictly RAW you can use the power with a single dagger but only when there's only one target in the blast.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Empowerment is literally being given the authority or power to do something, so he didn't confuse anything. I also like how you had to limit the power to physical in order to change the most powerful animal on the farm from the farmer to the horse. The farmer is both the most empowered and the most powerful(due to the empowerment) on the farm. Assuming it's his farm anyway.

But I have asked repeatedly for things that the DM is able to do but can't do in 4e and got absolutely nothing back as things. I have however had things back that they have to do and don't have to in 4e - and I've been told that tools you can optionally choose to use to make things easy but you don't have to use don't empower you.

This is why I'm using the draft horse analogy. I have yet to receive any actual answers that make 4e DMs other than the most empowered DMs in any edition - any power the 4e DM is not allowed to wield. I have however had answers involving things you have to do but have a lot of power for - which is why I used the horse analogy to explain why I felt that what I was being told was empowering was actively disempowering. Of course being a draft horse isn't empowered however strong the horse is.

Now, if you can tell me what DMs can do in other editions that you can't in 4e I'll be very interested to hear them. But so far no one has come up with anything - and I've produced things that the 4e DM can at their choice use.

 

[Manbearcat]

Cool story, but practice and repetition still enable those guys to do that to those particular walls. PCs aren't going to be able to do that on random walls and such that they encounter, just as those guys wouldn't. Climb them sure. Climb them at those speeds, no.

I’d order it like this:

Genetics
Genetics
Genetics
Genetics
Genetics
Genetics
Genetics

Training and repetition increasing WAAAAY outside the normal population distribution default:

• spatial geometry understanding
• coordination
• finger, hand, wrist, shoulder, back, core strength
• muscle chain explosiveness
• increased creativity and 3D puzzle/obstacle-solving ability

The point of my post was to drive home the point that genetically gifted and hard-working humans are capable of far, far, far more than what D&D GMs smuggle into their games (and constrain martial PCs by) due to their lack of exposure and understanding.

This (not pejorative) “ignorance bias” has a direct impact on play, particularly in proportion to how (a) how much/little genre logic informs action resolution and (b) how much authority the GM’s dearth or breadth of knowledge/understanding has over action resolution.

And finally, GMs routinely hold martial players to below Earthly human standards in terms of physical feats. Those physical capabilities are precisely what martial PCs rely upon to defeat monsters in physical combat. My contention is as it always has been. Explosiveness, coordination, resilience, speed/accuracy of processing to fire the neural system are the base substrate for dealing with Epic Tier D&D antagonists (especially things like Ancient Wyrms). Upon that you build with training and repetition, but that base substrate is BY FAR the most important thing.

The base substrate allowed for by most GMs just doesn’t comport with being able to survive, let alone win, a melee encounter with an Ancient Wyrm.

It’s fine for folks to say “I don’t care, I want my martial characters to be grounded by my own real world experience and understanding.” But it would be nice if folks acknowledged (a) the fiction disparity it creates between martial hero and obstacle and (b) the impact on play at endgame when it comes to martial characters and spellcaster s dealing with noncombat obstacles (whether people or information deficits or physical obstacles).

 

[Maxperson]

But I have asked repeatedly for things that the DM is able to do but can't do in 4e and got absolutely nothing back as things. I have however had things back that they have to do and don't have to in 4e - and I've been told that tools you can optionally choose to use to make things easy but you don't have to use don't empower you.

Nothing, really. The difference is in how the book speaks to the DM. The 4e DMG gives much more constraint to the DM in its language, so it discourages the DM from stepping out of the boundaries and creating a new rule or altering rules. Other DMGs encourage it.

Take page 42 of the DMG. It's very clear on informing the DM on how to rule improvised actions. You use the table for damage, rather than coming up with something. You give +2/-2, rather than, up to +2/-2 or "We suggest +2/-2, but it's up to you." It's very constraining on the DM. The DM has to fight the PG 42 rules in order to go outside of them, rather than being empowered to do so.