D&D 4E Presentation vs design... vs philosophy

[Lanefan]

This would be absolutely trivial to do in 4e.

What's an example of a kitbash that was attempted in 4e and couldn't be made to work?

How would I know? As mentioned above, I've never tried kitbashing 4e, nor has anyone I know. EDIT TO ADD: My take on it comes from looking at the difficulty with attempts to kitbash 3e with its unified system, then concluding that as 4e has an even more unified system kitbashing it would be just as hard if not worse.

 

[FrogReaver]

This already is about something else, @Umbran.

But since thread derailment is not moderated here, I'm just waiting for the off-topic chatter to die down.

Where he gets the language this thread is dormant and ressurrected I have no idea. I check it several times a week on the off chance anyone posts something relevant to the topic at hand:

Pathfinder 2 and how its philosophy compares to 4E.

Please don't shut down the thread because those people fill it with bickering. Punish the posters, not the thread.

Thank you

Here's where 4e and PF2 feel the same to me - they both offer a lot of choices that have very little individual impact. 5e isn't that way at all. In 4e that's powers. In PF2 that's feats.

A few other similarities - multiclassing in PF2 and 4e works the same. Hybrid character rules fixed that for 4e eventually though.

Other than that and a few other things - 4e and PF2 are very different games. But they still feel similar to me because of their vast choices that give little impact.

 

[Aldarc]

IME, and others' may naturally vary, but the more subsystems you add to the game, the greater the barrier is for players attempting to engage the fiction first rather than the mechanics. Learning the game once may be fine if you only play that one game for the rest of your life, as is likely the case with @Lanefan, but that is rarely the case, even with a juggernaut brand like D&D in the market. In this regard, D&D on the whole is deficient due to its love of subsystems.

Has there ever been an official release of D&D that has been anything less than rules medium in its crunch?

 

[Lanefan]

Has there ever been an official release of D&D that has been anything less than rules medium in its crunch?

One could make a case for Basic, I think, as being relatively rules-light. After that? Well...

 

[pemerton]

Disparate mechanics help make a system more flexible

AD&D has quite disparate mechanics - and is really useful only for a pretty narrow span of fantasy gaming. It has multiple mecahnics for resolving interactions with doors, and traps, but has no mechanics eg for finding a fence in a city, or finding a particular sort of tree in a forest, or persuading a NPC wizard to place a curse on a nemesis.

Cortex+ Heroic has unified mechanics and can resolve doors, traps, finding a fence or a tree, and persuading a wizard. And the same system can also do supers (Marvel Heroic RP).

I don't think it's a coincidence, either. Each mechanic in AD&D does one thing, and one thing only. So if you want the game to encompass a new area of fiction (eg fencing stolen goods; finding plants in forests) you need a new mechanic.

 

[Lanefan]

AD&D has quite disparate mechanics - and is really useful only for a pretty narrow span of fantasy gaming. It has multiple mecahnics for resolving interactions with doors, and traps, but has no mechanics eg for finding a fence in a city, or finding a particular sort of tree in a forest, or persuading a NPC wizard to place a curse on a nemesis.

Cortex+ Heroic has unified mechanics and can resolve doors, traps, finding a fence or a tree, and persuading a wizard. And the same system can also do supers (Marvel Heroic RP).

I don't think it's a coincidence, either. Each mechanic in AD&D does one thing, and one thing only. So if you want the game to encompass a new area of fiction (eg fencing stolen goods; finding plants in forests) you need a new mechanic.

While keeping firmly in mind that the new mechanic may well be no mechanic at all (i.e whatever it is is handled by DM fiat and-or freeform roleplay), I actually agree with this.

That said, flexibility also includes not necessarily having mechanics for where they are not needed. Persuading the NPC wizard is, IMO, one such.

 

[Aldarc]

One could make a case for Basic, I think, as being relatively rules-light. After that? Well...

Maybe. But now I'm curious how people would rank the editions of D&D from rules lightest to rules heaviest.

While keeping firmly in mind that the new mechanic may well be no mechanic at all (i.e whatever it is is handled by DM fiat and-or freeform roleplay), I actually agree with this.

That said, flexibility also includes not necessarily having mechanics for where they are not needed. Persuading the NPC wizard is, IMO, one such.

Jein. The problem of PCs persuading the NPC wizard, IMO, is that it often heavily falls on DM fiat. So in some regards, it's one of the contentious points where a DM can effectively railroad players.

Cortex+ Heroic has unified mechanics and can resolve doors, traps, finding a fence or a tree, and persuading a wizard. And the same system can also do supers (Marvel Heroic RP).

Sidebar: Have you looked into Cortex Prime?

 

[pemerton]

Sidebar: Have you looked into Cortex Prime?

No. At the moment my Cortex action is slowing working away on my LotR version!

 

[Lanefan]

Maybe. But now I'm curious how people would rank the editions of D&D from rules lightest to rules heaviest.

Wasn't there a poll on just this in here not that long ago - maybe last year? Or is my memory playing tricks again...

Jein. The problem of PCs persuading the NPC wizard, IMO, is that it often heavily falls on DM fiat. So in some regards, it's one of the contentious points where a DM can effectively railroad players.

True, which depending on the particular table could be just fine, or not so.

It's on the DM to play with the level of good faith expected by the table. If the table doesn't mind some railroading then do whatever, but with a less railroad-tolerant group the DM has to play the NPC within its character, and decide as the NPC would whether the persuasion RPed by the players is enough to sway him or not.

 

[Oofta]

Does a version qualify as rules light if the rules aren't coherent or complete enough to run strictly out of the box?