Prestige Classes - A Crutch?

[Teflon Billy]

...I don't even think most PrCs are taken/designed for a concept, but rather to pimp out some aspect of a character. Look at every archer PrC and explain to me what the 'concept' of it is. They are all ways to make archery even more powerful- often too powerful...

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly.

this is what I often find when players come to me with PrC's thay want. They say, "I want to be a fighter/wizard", and I say "so take levels in both".

The reply is usually "this is much better fighter/wizard than just dual classing...you don't lose any spellcasting levels" or something like that.

I'm not going to look for the quote, but someone in the htread said that "If you can do it with base classes, there shouldn't be a Prestige Class" and that's basically the crux of it.

The fact that dual class characters aren't qas powerful as single-class characters in their chosen fields is not as bug. You are giving up specialization for versatility.

Quit trying to wheedle your way around that

 

[Psion]

Cool - more posts while I typed.

OK, reading Psion's post I can see that my post may sound a little harsh. Overall, I agree with Psion.

Perhaps I should be looking at book PrC's as frameworks that I need to develop within my game world. I actually do that, but I should have said that instead of giving a blanket reference to them being "bland and lacking".

Many published PrCs are bland and lacking.

Some, however, are Tres Cool.

The real problem I have with published PrC's has a lot more to do with how the players approach them rather than how they were written.

My players are mostly old schoolers that tend to ignore them. At least they were for a long time. For the first time ever, there is aare as many PrC characters as there are without them in the group; I got a few new players and some old players were getting bored and were making new characters.

As an author, you are probably going to need to generalize a PrC to present a little flavor and hope the DM can customize it from there.

Many PrCs are just starting points for me. It seems like there is a spectrum of attitude about PrCs. I find FFG's PrCs too powerful, and I find BadAxe's too weak. I find the 3.5 ones too bland. I think nearly any PrC benefits from being given a customized with a concrete role in the game world.

 

[Psion]

The fact that dual class characters aren't qas powerful as single-class characters in their chosen fields is not as bug. You are giving up specialization for versatility.

Look, it's the BadAxe Games' design philosophy.

I'm somewhere in the middle on this one. I don't beleive that versatility is as valuable as some (like BadAxe and TB here) make it out to be, but OTOH, I think that it is more valuable than WotC R&D (who designed the Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight) beleives it to be.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Look, it's the BadAxe Games' design philosophy.

I'm somewhere in the middle on this one. I don't beleive that versatility is as valuable as some (like BadAxe and TB here) make it out to be, but OTOH, I think that it is more valuable than WotC R&D (who designed the Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight) beleives it to be.

I think I'm already on record a few times as being totally onside with the Badaxe Games philosophy

I'm asking this without rancor or sarcasm Psion (and saying so because such things don't often translate well in this medium) but what exactly is the downside of the Mystic Theurge?

I'm asking because your D&D-Fu is mighty, while mine is like, maybe brown belt in comparison

 

[BluSpecs]

Wow, this got alot more responses than I expected! Thanks!

I admit I'm not totally up on all the prestige classes out there but the majority of the ones I've looked at (WOTC books) just duplicate feats or spells and some just seem to give skill bonuses.

I've got to agree with the statement about the way they are written and how player aproach them. Most gamers that I've played with/talked to look at them as a way to gain extra powers or play that stereotype character.

The Bane/ Boon statement was very good. I'm all for things that help me out with the 3 hours of gaming I get twice a month.

I guees another gripe I've got is how Prc's seem to have become a core part of the game.
Every suppliment the comes out (WOTC or otherwise) talks up "with 80 gazzillion new PRCS!" But hey the're trying to sell books and PRC's sell...


My intention was not to come off as judgemental, I was just looking for veiws outside of my little community. it looks like I'm getting what I asked for!

 

[BSF]

Initially, I don't look at the Mystic Theurge to see what the upside/downside is. I look at it to see what does it bring to the game in terms of potential. I find it lacking in that regard. Then I look at the upside/downside equation. While WotC is trying to present a viable multiclass spellcaster, I am not pleased with their implementation.

I am much more intrigued by the Hallowed Mage in the Book of Hallowed Might (Malhavoc Press). Interesting class and it is just begging to have more campaign-specific elements tacked onto it.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I'm asking this without rancor or sarcasm Psion (and saying so because such things don't often translate well in this medium) but what exactly is the downside of the Mystic Theurge?

I've tried to figure this one out also. If anyone has a logical rationale, I'm more than happy to read it.

 

[Henry]

I admit I'm not totally up on all the prestige classes out there but the majority of the ones I've looked at (WOTC books) just duplicate feats or spells and some just seem to give skill bonuses.

One thing I realized I neglected in my post is that I believe that if a PrC is nothing more than a collection of feats or spellcasting levels with a pretty bow wrapped around it, then it probably is extraneous. It's when a PrC creates a new mechanic, or melds two classes that you don't normally think of melding (like that Barbarian raging spellcaster from Dragon Magazine about two years ago) that it shows its worth.

Every suppliment the comes out (WOTC or otherwise) talks up "with 80 gazzillion new PRCS!" But hey the're trying to sell books and PRC's sell...

As do cigarettes, chocolate, and beer. There was a point in about 2001-2002 where conventional wisdom was, if a product didn't have a prestige class or ten in the mix, then it wouldn't sell. Nowadays, there are -- what? A couple thousand? -- PrC's to pick from, and everyone's reinvented the wheel 90% of the time.

 

[Psion]

I'm asking this without rancor or sarcasm Psion (and saying so because such things don't often translate well in this medium) but what exactly is the downside of the Mystic Theurge?

You ask that like I didn't just say that I think the Mystic Theurge is too much for my taste.

The downside of the MT, as much as there is one, is that it will be a level or two behind the highest casting level of the same level single classed spellcaster.

But, (and like Jennifer Lopez, this is a big but) that's not enough of a handicap for the extra versatility, IMO.

At the same time, a multiclass cleric/mage of the same total level is weak. The highest levels of a spellcasting class are the strongest levels. Levels 6-10 of a wizard are not a fair trade for levels 1-5 of cleric. Yes, versatility counts for something, but do not make up for the difference.

The answer, in my philosophy/viewpoint/opnion/etc., is something in between. In my games, I am preparing more balanced (and more flavorful) deity specific mystic theurges after this pattern:

Saves/BAB/Skills: As mystic theurge

   Special        Spellcasting
1  Ability 1      +1 level arcane & divine
2                 +1 level arcane & divine
3  Ability 2      +1 level divine
4                 +1 level arcane & divine
5  Ability 3      +1 level arcane
6                 +1 level arcane & divine
7  Ability 4      +1 level divine
8                 +1 level arcane & divine
9  Ability 5      +1 level arcane
10                +1 level arcane & divine

This gives the MT a few less caster levels at the high end -- where it really is too much in the core version; at low levels, the fact that it is playing catch-up mean that the core version is fairly balanced as-is. The abilities are campaign specific thingies to give it more flavor, but are not at potent as the higher level spell abilities.

Needless to say, I was rather pleased to see that Green Ronin did something like this in one of their books already.

 

[Endur]

I have given up on PRCs and do not allow them in my campaign.

The initial idea, the idea that an order of knights might have its own special class that only Knights of the Round Table had access to, sounded neat.

And yet, there is no reason why you can't make a Knight of the Round Table with the Fighter class or the Paladin class.

Furthermore, the 1000's of PRCs meant that some were more valuable than others from a game mechanic perspective (Archmage, Frenzied Berserker, Deepwood Sniper, Incantrix, etc.). And it added extra complexity to an already complex set of rules.