Prestige Classes: Too much of a good thing?

[Psion]

Crothian, you seem to have acquired a loyal band of Ditto-heads!

More like, we've heard this argument since prestige classes were born, but prestige classes not only don't seem to be going anywhere, people are making use of them.

The fact that WotC has retired or retooled a number of PrCs suggests that they themselves know that some of what they put out is, well, crud.

Feh.

Hindsight is 20/20. Methods mature and it becomes more apparent with more actual play and more techniques under their belt, there are more ways to do things better. May as well use them.

I don't object to PrCs just because this one or than does not suit my tastes for purely subjective reasons ("Knight of the Pink Thong...I'll pass"). Too many PrCs suffer from poor balance or iffy game mechanics.

That a given prestige class has poor game balance or suffers from iffy mechanics IS subjective.

 

[Crothian]

Crothian, you seem to have acquired a loyal band of Ditto-heads!

I'm a cult leader, drink the kool aid!!

The fact that WotC has retired or retooled a number of PrCs suggests that they themselves know that some of what they put out is, well, crud.

Actually, since they are being reprinted from 3.0 to 3.5 tells me that Wizards thinks these are the classes that people want to see. Not all the classes before needed to be brought back (bring back the Oozemaster Wizards!!!). Some are outdated as rules changes makes the core class be able to do what the prestege class did. Many of the retolled ones are infact retolled becasue of rules changes, not that there was something wrong with the class. Sure, some have improved with the rewtolling, but isn't that a good thing?

I don't object to PrCs just because this one or than does not suit my tastes for purely subjective reasons ("Knight of the Pink Thong...I'll pass"). Too many PrCs suffer from poor balance or iffy game mechanics. Most PrCs offer great perks at minimial cost and often create a defacto penality for players who stick with leveling in standard classes. Its not the "fluff" of PrCs that bothers me, its the inconsistant quality of the "crunch." Yes, I know any assessment of rules balance is also somewhat subjective. Yet, both on the web and in person, I've heard growing concern among gamers about the power creep and shooty rules afflicting PrCs.

You won't find a better group of gamers willing to disect the rules and understand basic game design then EN World when it comes to d20. People here will not hesitate to tell the world which classes are out of balance. But very few classes are ever pointed out. Now, if you think otherwise then I suggest starting a thread over in rules and start talking about specific classes. It always creates a good discussion and offers many interesting view points. My point here is that the concern shown on EN World is not that great. I trust these boards and the thousands of people who come here, they know there stuff. My concern then is not that great.

 

[Shuffle]

I like the mass amounts of PrC's.
I don't like the players constantly assuming they can use them.

I personally limit the PrC's to 10 levels, meaning if you take say the Cavalier PrC (probably my favourite PrC thematically) you've used up your 10 levels. As soon as you take the first level in it you've used up ALL of your availible PrC slots.
I use this because I think personally a PrC implies a specialized commitment, and also to prevent rampant munchkinizing.

Of course I limit the players, but any and all PrC's are open for DM use. It makes for better villans and NPC's that way. Like the Evangelist

 

[Psion]

I like the mass amounts of PrC's.
I don't like the players constantly assuming they can use them.

I've had more problem with players assuming they could use core deities.

 

[Crothian]

I've had more problem with players assuming they could use core deities.

I think we finally found the route to the problem: the players. Get rid of them and we might just have a good game system.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I think we finally found the route to the problem: the players. Get rid of them and we might just have a good game system.

D&D 4e: Rise of the DM

[cue Terminator theme]

 

[sfedi]

Are you happy or vexed by the current state of PrCs? Does the PrC concept just need to be tinkered with or toned down or do designers need to demolish the PrC and rebuilt it from scratch?

I'm unhappy more at the community rather than the designers (although I blame them a bit for following the herd. But hey, they have to sell!).
PrCs were a tool for DM's to flesh out better their worlds, giving organizations in his campaign a mechanical counterpart.
Now, PrCs have turned into things that are picked indiscrimitely by players, without considerations of balance and flavor.

Of course this is more of a rant. But is something I constantly observe.
And I do realize that PrCs are optional, and DMs that let it get out of hand are not enforcing something thay can and they should.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I like the mass amounts of PrC's.
I don't like the players constantly assuming they can use them.

Heh, heh, heh... In my campaign it is 'player' not players, he has an amazing ability to zoom in on the least apprpriate PrC for any setting. Running a game set in the 1630s in the Germanies? 'Can I play a Samurai? Why not?' Running a game in the Iron Kingdoms? 'Can I be an Ooze Master? Why not?'

I give out a list of PrCs allowed, does he ask about them? No, he assumes that I haven't given the book the PrC is in a good look, even though there are several that came from that very book, and asks to play something not on the list! Bah!

Everyone else seems to get the fact that PrCs are part of a world's flavor, he just looks at the shiny new powers.

The Auld Grump

 

[Li Shenron]

Too many? I don't know, definitely ideas are running out, but on the other hand it doesn't hurt to have more PrCls to cover the same concept: you can choose which is best to your campaign, or you can even allow more (who said that all the members of the XXX have to be the same?). Personally I'm tired of character-oriented stuff in general, and I haven't bought player books for a long time, but my true only gripe with the abundance of PrCl is that they take author's effort away from other things I may find more useful for our games.

 

[Berandor]

I don't think there are too many, per se, but too many that do the same thing. How many archer PrCl can exist before they start shooting each other? How many PrCl of a sun deity can exist before even mindless undead get bored?

And I'm with arnwyn in that they may sell it, but not to me. I don't have the Complete books, nor the Races books or any MM except for the original (though I do have Legacy of Dragons, admittedly, and Monster Geographica: Underground ) - and I'm doing fine.