Prestige Classes: Too much of a good thing?

[Berandor]

PrCs were a tool for DM's to flesh out better their worlds,

Well, not their only raison d'être, but one that is seldomly propagated. On the other hand, as each campaign is different, it's not too easy to do that for the majority of DMs. WotC tries to do it with regional supplements (Spellguard of Silverymoon, etc.), though.

 

[Li Shenron]

Just one thing coming to my mind...

I don't know about the recent books, but many PrCls flavor text seems to hint too much that there are necessary hundreds of characters with that PrCl, by saying things like "humans, elves and half-elves are the most likely to become (e.g.) Mindbenders, but other races are also common. Only halfling are almost unheard of."
I think this sort of lines give players the impression that "almost unheard" means that after all they are NOT unheard, so there must be a few; therefore the "common" are more than that, and the "likely" must be plently around.
I wouldn't be surprised if a DM would be irritated because he's thinking that if she allows the Mindbenders, then there is automatically the Mindbender Society spread around the continent, etc etc, and allowing 50 PrCls forces her to make up 50 organizations.

But why couldn't a fantasy world have ONE ONLY Mindbender?

 

[LeifVignirsson]

It can't be helped. Most D&D gamers prefer D&D-labeled products. Look at their messageboards. "They want this, they want that." 80% of their request are already available in d20-labeled products, but they don't think they're "authentic." Just as americans care about "Made in the USA" label on merchandise, D&D gamers want "Made by WotC."

"Made by WotC"... Well, there are a few ideas that will break down and be smoking on the side of the road while others whiz by them at break-neck speed... Then the tow truck will drag them along, kicking and screaming down the same path and everyone will give WotC credit for having the balls to go that direction in the slowest means and ways possible...

PrC's are fine. I annoy my DM with them all the time and we both know that I won't use 95% of those that I present, but it does help for him to know what "everyone else" has and what he has in his game. I don't think there is a PrC that is out there that is in his campaign in a mish-mash already before the PrC's came out... Hell, based off of one PrC, I managed to help him create an entire social structure... Now THAT is power, baby!

All in all, the good PrC's will stick around while the bad ones will be washed away, much like the kits for 2E (I miss the Blade, I really do...). As long as the player presents the DM with the information and discusses it with rational thought, then that should be all that matters, right?

*snork Made by WotC...

 

[Arnwyn]

That a given prestige class has poor game balance or suffers from iffy mechanics IS subjective.

Heh. Tell that to those in the Rules forum, or in the "power creep" thread!

I've had more problem with players assuming they could use core deities.

That I find surprising (and, IMNSHO, not at all representative).

 

[mhacdebhandia]

With the release of Complete Adventure, I'm beginning to wonder if D&D is becoming oversaturated with an ever rising tide of new Prestige classes (WotC or others). The sheer number of PrCs creates issues of game balance and power creep.

There's no such thing as "power creep" in a roleplaying game. The term derives from and only possesses meaning in the context of collectible games - when what is considered "official" for tournament play changes with each new expansion, more powerful cards in later expansions creates "power creep" and forces players to keep up to remain competitive.

In D&D, however, the term has no meaning. New prestige classes can be overpowered and thus unbalanced, but there is no "power creep" because a) They are not mandatory and b) They can be altered, two things which are not true of the latest Magic: the Gathering or any other CCG expansion which may be overpowered.

So let us forget about that term, eh? Complain about balance all you like, but to call it "power creep" is silly. Especially since many of the most recent prestige classes are far from overpowered. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, anyone?

 

[Jolly Giant]

Just last week I finally got my hands on Comp Arc and Comp Adv, and something about the PrC's struck me: Practically all the ones I liked were reprints from the 3.0 splat books.

Most of the new PrC's just seemed silly to me, somehow. Sure, they sometimes had cool and useful mechanics and abilities, but to me they just didn't make any sense. The worst example, IMHO, was the Ghost-Faced Killer: They put on white masks and practise acting like ghost, and then gain ghost-like abilities? It's not like you need magic to perform these astounding tricks; no, you just have to be really good at acting like a ghost.I don't get it.

I've always said that you can't have too many options (as long as they're balanced), but no I'm starting to think we have enough PrC's. There are definitely enough of them that it's getting to be extremely hard to come up with a new one that's balanced, original and makes sense.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

The Ghost-Faced Killer is inspired by the 1979 film Ninja Checkmate, also known as The Mystery of Chess Boxing. It's a martial arts-movie trope, in other words.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0199813/

 

[Pants]

So let us forget about that term, eh? Complain about balance all you like, but to call it "power creep" is silly. Especially since many of the most recent prestige classes are far from overpowered. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, anyone?

I'd play that class...

 

[mhacdebhandia]

So would I, but I think we can agree that it is not overpowered, and may in fact be slightly weak.

 

[Aethelstan]

There's no such thing as "power creep" in a roleplaying game. The term derives from and only possesses meaning in the context of collectible games - when what is considered "official" for tournament play changes with each new expansion, more powerful cards in later expansions creates "power creep" and forces players to keep up to remain competitive.

In D&D, however, the term has no meaning. New prestige classes can be overpowered and thus unbalanced, but there is no "power creep" because a) They are not mandatory and b) They can be altered, two things which are not true of the latest Magic: the Gathering or any other CCG expansion which may be overpowered.

So let us forget about that term, eh? Complain about balance all you like, but to call it "power creep" is silly. Especially since many of the most recent prestige classes are far from overpowered. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, anyone?

Your definition of the term "power creep" strikes me as curiously narrow. Power creep may mean something specific in collectible games but surely the term, used in a general sense (i.e. the gradual increase of player power), applies to D&D. The fact that PrCs are both optional and open to alteration does not prove that there is no power creep in D&D. Not every DM is rules-savy enough to ferret out over-powered PrCs before letting them into his game and many DMs hesitate to tinker with "official" WotC PrCs. Thus even though PrCs are not mandatory, they can cause power creep in a campaign if a DM lacks the skill or confidence to regulate them.
And for the record, I do think the new wave of PrCs, coupled with new feats, are causing power creep. For the sake of argument, I propose the following scenario: Two groups of experienced gamers are each asked to create parties of five 15th level PCs (excluding magic items) and then compete both in head to head combat and against a tournament style dungeon. Group 1 may only use feats and PrCs from the 3.5 PHB and DMG. Group 2 may use the same plus all feats and PrCs from official WotC books published since 3.5. Is it your contention that Group 2, with the wide array of feats and PrCs at their disposal, could not create PCs more versitile, survivable and lethal than Group 1? I may be wrong but if a large cash prize went to the victory, I strongly suspect that most expert D&D players would choose to be in Group 2.