Prestige Classes vs. Core Classes

[Bluemoon]

I was wondering if the boardmembers would be kind enough to answer me a question that has been vexing me for a while now. For you to understand my confusion, let me just say that I'm an old AD&D 2nd Ed. player who left roleplaying in '97 when TSR went under and have just returned to the game less than a month ago. So after a six-year absense I come to discover that there's a 3rd Ed. of the game!! Woo-hoo!!

I'm currently in the process of buying the D&D and FR sourcebooks and others from the D20 pulishers out there but have refrained from buying the three core rulebooks until the revised editions come out.

My source of confusion stems from the use of Prestige Classes and multi-classing.

As I understand them to be, Prestige Classes are:

Campaign/organization/location/race specific.
They may or may not be allowed by your DM.
You can't begin play as a 1st level character in a Prestige Class but must start play in one of the Core Classes first until you meet the requirements for multi-classing into a Prestige Class. Different Prestige Classes have different requirements but not class requirements, meaning that they are open to any Core Class although sore are more suited for certain Core Classes rather than others.
Some Prestige Classes have only five levels while others have ten.

This is what I know about them.

1) Have I missed anything else that may be helpful in understanding them?

2) Can you multi-class in more than one Prestige Class just like you can multi-class in more than one Core Class as long as you meet the requirements?

3) What happens when my 5th level Core Class (Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, etc...) multi-classes into a Prestige Class that only has five levels? So what happens after achieving 5th level in the Prestige Class? Now I am a 5th level Core Class/5th level Prestige Class, am I stuck like that forever? Should I have multi-classed into the Prestige Class when my Core Class was 15th level instead of 5th level? Is the only way to get unstuck to multi-class into a third class? If so, can I multi-class into a second Prestige Class? Can I ultimately have a character that is 5th level Core Class/5th level Prestige Class/10th level Prestige Class?

4) What are the advantages/disadvantages of multi-classing into a Prestige Class as opposed to multi-classing into a regular Core Class?

5) Are there any Core Classes that shouldn't multi-class into Prestige Classes? Core Classes that loose more than gain when multi-classing?

6) Are there any Core Classes that should multi-class into Prestige Classes? Core Classes that gain more than loose when multi-classing?

7) There are a lot of sourcebooks out there introducing new Prestige Classes from many D20 publishers but are there any sourcebooks introducing new Core Classes besides the Player's Handbook and Oriental Adventures? If so, which ones would you recommend?

8) What are some of your favorite Prestige Classes and why? Which sourcebook from which publisher can I find them at? Do you like them because they are uber-cool for powergamers or because of atmosphere/character-development reasons for role-players?

9) What are some of your least favorite Prestige Classes and why? Which sourcebook from which publisher describe these Prestige Classes that you do not like?

10) And the question that will never be settled, is it better to:

a) Single-class. (Better for which Core Class?)

b) Multi-class into another Core Class. (Better for which Core Class to multi-class into which Core Class?)

c) Multi-class into a Prestige Class. (Better for which Core Class to multi-class into which Prestige Class?)

d) Multi-class and use all your new experience points into advancing your second class and never advance your first class again, as long as you do not suffer the -20% XP penalty.

e) Multi-class and use your new experience points to advance both classes.

Whuuf! That's it for now. These are the most pressing questions about the new edition that I have. I know that they are many, but hopefully some of you are willing to answer some of them and clear up my confusion. I appreciate any and all comments and I thank in advance all of you who respond to help me out.

Thanks!!

 

[Hypersmurf]

There is no arbitrary limit on the number of Prestige Classes you can have, although a DM may set one.

You are under no obligation to "complete" a Prestige class.

So - if you meet the prerequisites - you could end up with two or three levels in two core classes and half a dozen Prestige Classes, for example.

If you take five levels of, say, Fighter, then complete a 10-level Prestige Class, you can go back to taking more levels of Fighter, or Ranger, or Wizard, or start another PrC. The exceptions are Paladins and Monks, who specifically can never "return" once they've levelled up in another class (although certain PrCs can "multiclass freely" with Monks, for example).

Non-caster classes often benefit from multiclassing. Example - a Ftr2/Rog2/Rgr1/Bbn1 is frequently at least as powerful, or more so, than a Ftr6 or Bbn6. However, his Will save will suck.

Casters usually find multiclassing detrimental, unless the class the multiclass with increases their Caster Level.

For example, a Wiz5/Ftr5 or a Wiz5/Clr5 is nowhere near as powerful as a Wiz10, or Clr10, or even Ftr10. But a Wiz5/Elemental Savant 5 doesn't lose a lot by multiclassing. A bonus feat, and familiar progression. And he gains some Nifty Powers(tm) in the process.

The biggest drawback of most of the "+1 spellcaster level" PrCs is the prerequisites. Spending two or three feats on things-you'll-never-use just to qualify for a PrC can hurt... but often the Nifty Powers(tm) make up for it.

Certain Prestige Classes have abilities with a lot of synergy. A Fighter/Deepwood Sniper/Peerless Archer/Order of the Bow Initiate, for example, gets horribly powerful. That's one reason some DMs will set a limit on the number of PrCs you can take

As for who "should" take PrCs:

Sorcerers lose nothing except Familiar Progression. Clerics lose nothing except Turning progression in some cases, and nothing at all in others. But in both cases, there are often heavy prerequisites. It depends where you want to take the character.

And obviously, a character with a "theme" frequently benefits from taking a PrC based around the theme. Perfect example - you can take a Fighter/Rogue and make a character who specialises in using a whip. But he will never have the Nifty Powers(tm) with a whip that the Lasher has.

Hope some of that helps...

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

This is what I know about them.

1) Have I missed anything else that may be helpful in understanding them?

Prestige Class levels tend to be slightly more valuable in their specialty, than most or all core classes. On the flipside, they tend to be much more specialised, and they often have entry requirements which won't benefit you overmuch.

2) Can you multi-class in more than one Prestige Class [...]

There's no written rule that prevents this, though some GMs might declare that off-limits in their campaigns (and others might just ban ALL prestige classes anyway).

3) What happens when my 5th level Core Class (Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, etc...) multi-classes into a Prestige Class [...]

Prestige classes are specifically excluded from the "unbalanced levels" rule; AFAIK this is clarified in the FAQ (go to wizards.com and get that FAQ right now ... you NEED to know the stuff that's in it! ).

4) What are the advantages/disadvantages of multi-classing [...]

Many prestige classes do something better than any Core class could ever aspire to (a Wizard(10)/Red Wizard(10) will be better in their specialty than a Wizard(20) with the same specialty -- for all they both are 20th-level arcane casters). Some of them do things that are impossible by other means (every arrow fired by an Arcane Archer is magical, "just because" ...).

5) Are there any Core Classes that shouldn't multi-class [...]

The Ex-paladin and Ex-monk rules ARE, last I checked the FAQ, applied to a paladin or monk who picks up a prestige class.

OTOH, several prestige classes have a similar mechanic, and a few are (explicitly stated in the class) EXCEPTIONS to the ex-monk or ex-paladin rule.

6) Are there any Core Classes that should multi-class [...]

Sorcerors lose precious little when multiclassing into a spellcasting prestige class. Rangers don't get much for neat abilities after 1st level (in 3.0, anyway). Paladins ... *yawn* ... look, mom, another Remove Disease use ...

7) There are a lot of sourcebooks out there [...]

The "splatbooks" (and the classes most likely to have a use for the PrCs in them):
Sword and Fist (fighters and monks)
Tome and Blood (wizards and sorcerors)
Defenders of the Faith (clerics and paladins)
Song and Silence (bards and rogues)
Masters of the Wild (druids, rangers, and barbarians)

The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting has several.

Savage Species has a few.

Magic of Faerun has several more, pretty much exclusively geared to spellcasters of all levels.

The Psionics Handbook, of course, has some Psionic PrCs.

The Wizards website has several more, mostly Psionic and/or Epic-level.

The Ravenloft setting has a couple sourcebooks out with prestige classes.

The Book of Vile Darkness has several, but isn't really supposed to be a player reference.

All the above are WOTC-made or -liscensed, d&d-specific sources. I haven't had much occasion to look over any other products, myself.

8) What are some of your favorite Prestige Classes [...][/b]

Hmm, I play so many different sorts of characters, that's hard to say, really. I'm especially fond of a couple -- the Alienist and Elemental Savant (T&B, both) for their concepts; the Lasher (S&F) for it's pure style; the Blackguard (because Evil can be FUN!).

9) What are some of your least favorite Prestige Classes and why? Which sourcebook from which publisher describe these Prestige Classes that you do not like?

Pretty much everything in Song and Silence, I'm afraid. That's the sourcebook I regret buying, the most.

10) And the question that will never be settled, is it better to:

a) Single-class. (Better for which Core Class?)

Perhaps, depending on your concept.

b) Multi-class into another Core Class. (Better for which Core Class to multi-class into which Core Class?)

Acceptible for any NON-SPELLCASTER. Pretty much suicide for anyone else.

c) Multi-class into a Prestige Class. (Better for which Core Class to multi-class into which Prestige Class?)

Sorcerors lose nothing much for multiclassing into a spellcasting PrC.

d) Multi-class and use all your new experience points into advancing your second class and never advance your first class again, as long as you do not suffer the -20% XP penalty.

e) Multi-class and use your new experience points to advance both classes.

Entirely situation- character- and player-dependant.

 

[Number47]

The important thing to remember of 3E is that they opened field wide to plenty of options for your character. There is no "right way" to advance your character. There are so many possible options that you can find a way to pull off almost anything well, with just a few exceptions. As for choices, I could have a human character and do something like this:

Level 1: Rogue (I want the extra skill points)
Level 2: Fighter (Bonus combat feat)
Level 3: Cleric (Domains!)
Level 4: Fighter (Another combat feat)
Level 5: Cleric
Level 6: PrC 1
Level 7: Cleric
Level 8: PrC 2
Level 9: Sorceror
Level 10: PrC 3

So, I wind up with a guy who is a Rogue 1/Fighter 2/Cleric 3/PrC1/PrC2/Prc3/Sorceror 1, and all of this without any XP penalties!

So, when you make a character for 3E, just decide what you think a cool character would be, then take the classes to fulfill the concept.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Those three guys gave all the answers to your questions, but here's the shorter way to think about it:


Core classes are fairly generic. Only a few have what you would consider a "limitation". Spellcasters can cast all kinds of spells. Fighters can use all weapons. Rogues have a ton of skills. And so on.

So, each core class is a generalist. Multiclassing allows you to mix and match abilities, but you're still staying pretty balanced. For example, I wanted a Bard but with offensive spells, so I went Rogue/Sorcerer. It wasn't any more or less powerful than the Bard, overall, it was just different. A Fighter/Rogue can be just as good in combat as a straight fighter, just with some different roles.

Prestige Classes, on the other hand, are almost always specialists. Their abilities will focus on one type of weapon, one type of magic, one set of Feats, one group of skills, and so on. So, by taking the PrC, you sacrifice 5 or 10 levels of general abilities to get more specialized ones that play to your strengths. This isn't necessarily more "powerful", it's just more focused. It's like the difference between a specialist wizard and a generalist: within your school you're more powerful, but you had to lose some capability in the process.

The failing here is that there are certain core classes (Sorcerer being the best example) that have no reason NOT to join a Prestige Class. But, these classes also tend to get hit harder by prerequisites due to their lack of bonus Feats or skill ranks.

In general, most characters will join a Prestige Class, because those classes have "personality". You get neat abilities at every level that most people have never heard of.
You're not just a Rogue, you're a Shadow Dancer. You're not just a Psion, you're a Crystalsinger. You're not just a Weretiger Fighter/Psychic Warrror/Barbarian/Ranger, you're an Assassin/Blackguard/Shadow Dancer too! Okay, that last one's a little bit out there, but I used that for a bad guy IMC.

Each DM has his own opinions on how to handle PrCs. For me, I individually design the PrC to the character (with the player's input), about 4-5 levels before he takes the class. That way, he's already growing into the class before he even gets its abilities. And, by negotiating the class abilities with the player, we end up with a class that's balanced with the campaign but still fun for the player.

 

[Pagan priest]

Monk is a core class that ends up losing some interesting stuff by multiclassing. All of the higher level class abilities will be gone forever. AC bonuses, open hand damage and unarmed attacks per round do not increase. Note that some PrC's allow those last to continue to increase.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
House Rules Warning!

After the Player's Handbook came out, it was mentioned that the only reason that paladins and monks can not multiclass was that the playtesters felt that it somehow didn't "feel" right. It was purely a flavor issue: these two classes were held to a different standard of dedication.

As a result of this double standard, some DM's allow monks and paladins to multiclass freely. On the other hand, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook specifically allows certain monk or paladin multiclass combinations, depending on which God the character worships.

 

[Ferret]

I'm ignoring all the other replies for now.

1) Have I missed anything else that may be helpful in understanding them?

No, not to my

2) Can you multi-class in more than one Prestige Class just like you can multi-class in more than one Core Class as long as you meet the requirements?

Yes sure

3) What happens when my 5th level Core Class (Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, etc...) multi-classes into a Prestige Class that only has five levels? So what happens after achieving 5th level in the Prestige Class? Now I am a 5th level Core Class/5th level Prestige Class, am I stuck like that forever? Should I have multi-classed into the Prestige Class when my Core Class was 15th level instead of 5th level? Is the only way to get unstuck to multi-class into a third class? If so, can I multi-class into a second Prestige Class? Can I ultimately have a character that is 5th level Core Class/5th level Prestige Class/10th level Prestige Class?

Yes multiclassing is fine either way, just not fo monks or paladins

4) What are the advantages/disadvantages of multi-classing into a Prestige Class as opposed to multi-classing into a regular Core Class?

Alot of PrC's give special abilities, and can be good for Roleplaying

5) Are there any Core Classes that shouldn't multi-class into Prestige Classes? Core Classes that loose more than gain when multi-classing?

A few, Monks get good stuff all year round, and spellcasters should only go into spellcasting PrC's so they can continue casting stuffs.

6) Are there any Core Classes that should multi-class into Prestige Classes? Core Classes that gain more than loose when multi-classing?

Fighters are a bit boring later on but thats changing.

7) There are a lot of sourcebooks out there introducing new Prestige Classes from many D20 publishers but are there any sourcebooks introducing new Core Classes besides the Player's Handbook and Oriental Adventures? If so, which ones would you recommend?

Nope, really bacause they aren't needed, look on the wizards boards and search for "Shadowfoot"

8) What are some of your favorite Prestige Classes and why? Which sourcebook from which publisher can I find them at? Do you like them because they are uber-cool for powergamers or because of atmosphere/character-development reasons for role-players?

Shadow dancer is one of my fav, the only only one that comes to mind, but with 3ed being so homebrew friendly Some of my ones are my fav.

9) What are some of your least favorite Prestige Classes and why? Which sourcebook from which publisher describe these Prestige Classes that you do not like?

The incantrix, just 'cos it give me a head ache with allthoughs uber-powered stuff.

10) And the question that will never be settled, is it better to:

e)Whatever suits the situation.

 

[Pax]

So, I wind up with a guy who is a Rogue 1/Fighter 2/Cleric 3/PrC1/PrC2/Prc3/Sorceror 1, and all of this without any XP penalties!

Right, you wind up with a 13th level character who's incompetent at SEVERAL things, has so many useless feats (qualifying for three prestige classes) it's not funny, and can't spellcast NOR fight hsi way out of a wet paper bag ... with help!

BAB of maybe 5 or 6; cast spells as a 1st level sorceror or 3d level cleric (your BEST spells are 2d level!); and only the entry-level abilities form those prestige classes.

No offense, but "nickel-and-dime" approaches don't work, IMO.

 

[Bismark]

I think he was just giving an example of extreme multiclassing, not endorsing it as a powerful character.

 

[Bluemoon]

Wow! That's great advice you guys have given me and in a short amount of time too. Very informative. Thank you for the crash course on Prestige Classes. More and more I am making this board the one I frequent most often for my D&D fix and is helpful fellows like you that keep me coming back. Thanks to Hypersmurf, Pax, Spatzimaus and all the rest of you ladies and gentlemen for your thoughts and the time you took to answer me.

Thanks.