Prestige Classes vs. Core Classes

[DiFier]

You don't loose anything by multi classing. like Tidus said above. A wizard who takes a level of fighter doesn't lose anything. but when he levels he is still the same level of wizard plus now he has a level of fighter. So compared to a 8th level wizard a wiz7/ftr1 would be a less powerful wizard but he gains the benifits of the fighter class. like weapon and armor profeciencies.

My current charachter is a Figter2/wizard6/spell sword4. Spell sword is a PrC for multiclasses fighter's arcane casters. I am not as powerful as a 12th level wizard, which I noticed when dealing with spell resistance. but i'm a much better fighter than a 12th level wizard. When Spells didn't work I could fight with my sword. I also have quite a few more hit points than your average 12th level wizard. but I can't cast 5th or 6th level spells.

by multi-classing you slow down your progression in some abilities but gain access to others.

It all depends on how you want to play your charachter. I wanted to be a battle mage. Someone else might want to be a straight wizard. or a sorecer that specializes in breaking into buildings, or a Fighter that can protect him self magically. or a rogue who can cure wounds.

it is less stiff than earlier editions cause you can take alittle of this and a little of that and fit them to your concept of a charachter.

 

[Bluemoon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Prestige Classes vs. Core Classes

By Jove, I think he's got it!

**Slap me and call me Suzy!**

I got it! Class level and character level are two different things and the 20th level cap applies to the character level, not the class level. Now I get it. Multi-classing makes sense to me.

Whoof! What a relief. It was driving me crazy. Thank you all for clearing it up for me. Now I gotta tell my players. Now they have to be much more careful on their multi-classing choices.

But now something else has crossed my mind. What about the published adventure modules? If I buy an adventure module for say 6th to 9th level characters, does that refer to their highest level class (class level) or their combined class level (character level)? Which character would be appropiate for running that adventure: A Fighter 6th/Bladesinger 4th (class level) or a Fighter 6th/Bladesinger 2nd (character level)?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Prestige Classes vs. Core Classes

If I buy an adventure module for say 6th to 9th level characters, does that refer to their highest level class (class level) or their combined class level (character level)?

Think about it

Who's more powerful, a Ftr5/Rgr5/Bbn5/Rog5, or a Ftr6? One has a higher highest-level-class...

But one is a 20th level character, and the other is a 6th level character.

Note, though, that some combinations are weaker than others.

A Wiz1/Sor1/Clr1/Drd1/Brd1 simply pales in comparison to a Ftr5 or a Wiz5.

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Prestige Classes vs. Core Classes

A Wiz1/Sor1/Clr1/Drd1/Brd1 simply pales in comparison to a Ftr5 or a Wiz5.

-Hyp.

But he's at least good for a surprise.

Note though that a rog2/brd1/bbn1/rgr1/sor1 is playable.

If you want to drive your DM crazy.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Prestige Classes vs. Core Classes

A Wiz1/Sor1/Clr1/Drd1/Brd1 simply pales in comparison to a Ftr5 or a Wiz5.

Ah, but that first guy could take Mystic Theurge six different ways!

The concept is supposed to be that a character's true power is based on his character level, not class level. If you multiclass in somewhat intelligent ways, you won't be any less powerful. But, as we've pointed out, if you multiclass in dumb ways it will hurt you, and not just in the XP penalty.

There are three basic types of classes.
First are those that get all their best abilities up front, and are ideal for taking at level 1. Ranger, Rogue, Paladin, Barbarian... see a trend? Besides just the obvious class abilities, the HP/Skill Points/Armor and Weapon proficiencies you get at first class level make these classes great to take 1 level of. Most of these don't give anything substantial once you get past level 5-6.
Then, there are classes that get all their best abilities at the far end, at high level. Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid.
Mixing classes from that first group works just fine. A Ranger 1/Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Barbarian 2 is equal to or better than a Ranger 7 in most ways.
The remaining classes (Bard, Monk, Fighter) are in between. You get some decent stuff at first level, but enough of the abilities scale with level that you don't want to stop. Bards get good spellcasting, Monks get new abilities at every level, Fighters keep getting bonus Feats.

So, how do you mix these?

Mixing one or two levels from a class from the first group with the remaining levels in a class from the second group works well, assuming you like playing hybrid characters. Rogue 2/Wizard X is a popular combo (leading to Arcane Trickster in many cases).
Mixing classes from the second group is just dumb, unless you allow Mystic Theurge.

Anyway, your mileage may vary.

 

[Pax]

Re: Re: Re: Prestige Classes vs. Core Classes

Good info/advice there KaeYoss. I appreciate your response. Thanks.

One thing that you said in regards to multi-classing struck me though: You mentioned that:

"You lose the stuff of the core class (which you'd get if you advanced in that) and get the stuff from the PrC."

What stuff. What is it that a core class "looses" when multi-classing?

Does it work like it did in the 2nd edition, when after multi-classing you couldn't use the abilities of your first class and gained such abilities only after you had surpassed its level in your second class?

Replace "loses" with "fails to get" -- you continue to be able to use all prior abilities ... you just don't GET things that would come later. Fir example, take a Wizard(9); you qualify for whichever Prestige Class youw anted, and you're about to advance to level 10.

If you take a level of Wizard, you will get increased spellcasting, increased level towards your Familiar, and a bonus feat.

If you take anything else, you will at LEAST give up the bonus feat, and probably also the increased familiar benefits. You don't lose what you already have, you just "lose" what you COULD have gained.

I keep hearing that multi-classing is not beneficial to some classes that get good power/skills/abilities at higher levels like the Rogue, Wizard, and Monk. But why should that be if you can advance back and forth between two or more classes.

Sure, you may not be able to advance them equally at once like in the 2nd edition (Wizard 15th/Fighter 15th), but nevertheless, since you can keep advancing them back and forth then you can eventually have a Wizard 16th/Fighter 14th. Which means that you will have the abilities that people keep saying some core classes loose at higher levels if they multi-class.

Uh-oh, I think you've made a mistake WRT levels.

Experience points buy you CHARACTER levels. Not class levels. IF you are a Fighter(5), you will gain 6th level when you have 15,000XP ... wether that 6th level is another fighter level (making you a Fighter(6)), a Wizard level (making you Fighter(5)/Wizard(1)), or whatever.

Yes, it will take longer than if you single-classed because you have to divide your experience points between two classes but since the experience points needed to reach a level are so much lower than in the 2nd edition, it's not such a big deal.

All characters, no matter how many classes you have, have a SINGLE experience total. That denotes your character level, which is the sum of all your various class levels.

A Fighter(5)/Wizard(5) has the exact same number of experience points as a Fighter(10).

I think I'm missing something. I can't get my brain around it and it's driving my players insane. Please help!!

See above.

...

Seriously, though ... optional rules aside: all charactes start out single-classed. No more Fighter-MagicUser-Thief as a starting "first level" character; a Fighter(1)/Wizard(1)/Rogue(1) is a third level character, with the exact same experience as a Fighter(3).

Experience points denote character level; chartacter level is the SUM of all class level(s). You will, by PHB rules, have at most 20 character levels ... so if you advance two classes evenly, you will have 10 levels of each.

A Wizard(20) has th same experience as a Wizard(10)/Fighter(10).

 

[Darklone]

Why does everyone underestimate the paladin? Any paladin20 is lots better than a fighter4/pal16.

 

[JChung2003]

Why does everyone underestimate the paladin? Any paladin20 is lots better than a fighter4/pal16.

How is a 20th level paladin "lots better" than a 4th level fighter/16th level paladin?

Ftr4/Pal16 v. Pal20

Base Attack Bonus
The same (+20)

Base Save Bonus
The same (+12/+6/+6)

Feats
Ftr4/Pal16 has three bonus fighter feats; Pal20 does not.
Ftr4/Pal16 can take Weapon Specialization as a feat; Pal20 cannot.

Skills
Both have the same number of skill points, except: (a) Ftr4/Pal16 has Climb, Jump, and Swim as class skills for four fighter levels and (b) Pal20 has Concentration, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (religion), and Profession as class skills for four more paladin levels than the Ftr4/Pal16.

Class Abilities
Pal20 can lay hands for 20x his Charisma modifier hit points; Ftr4/Pal16 can only lay hands for 16x his Charisma modifier hit points.

Pal20 can smite evil 1/day for +20 damage. Ftr4/Pal16 can smite evil 1/day for +16 damage.

Pal20 can remove disease 6/week. Ftr4/Pal16 can remove disease 5/week.

Pal20 can cast 3/3/3/3 spells per day. Ftr4/Pal16 can cast 2/2/1/1 spells per day.

Pal20 can turn undead as a Clr18. Ftr4/Pal16 can turn undead as a Clr14.

Pal20 can cast magic as a 10th level divine spellcaster. Ftr4/Pal16 can cast magic as an 8th level divine spellcaster.

Pal20's mount is the same as the Ftr4/Pal16's mount except (a) Pal20's mount can command other creatures of its kind 10/day while the Ftr4/Pal16's mount can command other creatures of its kind 8/day and (b) Pal20's mount has SR 25, while the Ftr4/Pal16's mount has SR 21.

Summary

I see the Pal20 as a slightly better paladin than the Ftr4/Pal16, while the Ftr4/Pal16 is a slightly better fighter than the Pal20. This is as it should be.

 

[green slime]

Are three feats worth 1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd, and 2 4th level spells, (and let's not forget the extra Remove Disease ), the 4 higher damage from Smite, the 4 x Cha mod Lay on hands bonus, the ability to turn undead as an 18th level cleric (instead of 14th), and being closer to gaining those bonus epic feats. (Paladins gain bonus epic feats every third level, from 23rd level)

 

[Bluemoon]

Are three feats worth 1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd, and 2 4th level spells, (and let's not forget the extra Remove Disease ), the 4 higher damage from Smite, the 4 x Cha mod Lay on hands bonus, the ability to turn undead as an 18th level cleric (instead of 14th), and being closer to gaining those bonus epic feats. (Paladins gain bonus epic feats every third level, from 23rd level)

Oh I think that Weapon Specialization and three extra feats are worth all that but that's just me.