Prestige Classes vs. Core Classes

Pax (and Bluemoon too, I guess):

At the moment I've a (slightly modified) Forsaker. Brb 2 / Rgr 3 / For 3, as he now stands. (Forsaker is an anti-magic PrC in the Masters of the Wild)

His eventual multiclassing will be something like
Barbarian 2 / Fighter 2 / Ranger 3 / Rogue 3 / Forsaker 10

This works for him because he's a fighter type, and he only ends up losing 1 point of BAB. And he gets neato abilities that run the gamut. I think this works for my character in terms of roleplaying, and mechanics wise. True, I've only 3 feats tied into qualifying for Forsaker, and not 2 other PrC's as well, but they do help when they are tied into your character concept.

The feat prereqs are all 3 saving throw improving Feats. So 3 feats down the tubes while I could have Power Att, Cleave, and Great Cleave. My character is not as good at hacking through orcs as the other party fighter, but my guy has hardly any trouble with resisting spells, while most other fighters fail will saves to Hold Person.

Anyways... Multiclassing within the core classes can work well for a fighting oriented character. Throwing a PrC into that mix can't hurt either. But for a spellcaster, the most important thing is being able to access those 9th level spells: they need all of their spell levels for that.

[I apologise if this was a bit of a ramble... I kinda like talking about my Forsaker. Heh. :D ]
 

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Felix said:
Pax (and Bluemoon too, I guess):

At the moment I've a (slightly modified) Forsaker. Brb 2 / Rgr 3 / For 3, as he now stands. (Forsaker is an anti-magic PrC in the Masters of the Wild)

His eventual multiclassing will be something like
Barbarian 2 / Fighter 2 / Ranger 3 / Rogue 3 / Forsaker 10

And it's entirely workable, too. As you say, you onlylose 1 point of BAB from beign a pure fighter, barbarian, ranger, or so on. You get various abilities, stopped at clear breakpoints for each of the classes -- a couple feat bonusses from fighter, stacking uncanny dodge from barbariana nd rogue, +2d6 sneak from rogue, fast movement and rage from barbarian ...

Okay, I do think the 3 ranger levels are semiwasted, I'd've gone Ranger(1) and added two levels to either Fighter or Rogue, but that's just me.

Anyways... Multiclassing within the core classes can work well for a fighting oriented character. Throwing a PrC into that mix can't hurt either. But for a spellcaster, the most important thing is being able to access those 9th level spells: they need all of their spell levels for that.

[I apologise if this was a bit of a ramble... I kinda like talking about my Forsaker. Heh. :D ]

Not just those 9th level spells; you can stop at getting 8th level spells and be passably good (Wizard(15)/Fighter(5) isn't a crippled spellcaster; hampered yes, crippled no). Which is why some prestige classes -- like Blood Magus, which only gives 5 caster levels -- are still viable. Wizard(10)/Blood Magus(10) has 15 caster levels ... barely 8th levelspells. But the blood magus' abilities more than make up for a few caster levels, and one spell level. IMO, anyway.

It's when folks multiclass core spellcasting classes that they run into trouble. Mystic Theurge will at least make a divine/arcane hybrid potentially workable, though some consider it overpowered (and let's not continue down that sidetrack, please! been there, done that, BEAT that undead horse for far too long already ...).
 

I'll just throw in my two copper pieces.


Bluemoon said:

Some Prestige Classes have only five levels while others have ten.

5 and 10 are the most used numbers of levels. However, there's no hard rule about that. I've seen a couple of 3-levelers, at least one 6er, and one of 13 levels. Others are possible, too.

If you are interested in the Epic rules (for characters above the 20-levels limit): Core classes can be advanced beyond 20th level, and PrC's beyond 10th - but only if they already are 10ers (or around that number). 5-lv-PrC cannot be made epic.

2) Can you multi-class in more than one Prestige Class just like you can multi-class in more than one Core Class as long as you meet the requirements?

Sure. Since PrC's aren't taken into account when calculating XP penalties for uneven multiclassing, this can even be more favorable than multiclassing in core classes. But DM's can always limit the number of classes you can multiclass in, and PrC's are often restricted more than core clases (I.E. 4 classes, but 2 PrC's tops)

3) What happens when my 5th level Core Class (Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, etc...) multi-classes into a Prestige Class that only has five levels? So what happens after achieving 5th level in the Prestige Class? Now I am a 5th level Core Class/5th level Prestige Class, am I stuck like that forever? Should I have multi-classed into the Prestige Class when my Core Class was 15th level instead of 5th level? Is the only way to get unstuck to multi-class into a third class? If so, can I multi-class into a second Prestige Class? Can I ultimately have a character that is 5th level Core Class/5th level Prestige Class/10th level Prestige Class?

After you have finished a 5-level-PrC, you must continue in other classes, i.e. the one you had before, a new one, or a new PrC.

Not that at with every level-up, you can decide anew what class you advance: So at 7th level, your Fighter5/Champion1 could become Ftr5/Chm2, Ftr6/Chm1, or even Ftr5/Chm1/Somethingelse1.
There are only two classes you (usually) can't return to once you multiclass: Paladin and Monk. But many DM's disregard that rule, certain PrC's circumvent that rule (e.g. a Monk that is a Red Avenger can advance further as a monk), and some Paladin and Monk Orders have exceptions to the rule (e.g. Monks of the Dark Moon - monks of Shar in the FR - can multiclass as sorcerers), sometimes having a restriction (Must have more levels as monk than all other class levels combined, for example)

4) What are the advantages/disadvantages of multi-classing into a Prestige Class as opposed to multi-classing into a regular Core Class?

Well, that's easy: You lose the stuff of the core class (which you'd get if you advanced in that) and get the stuff from the PrC. It's like multiclassing in general. But PrC's are often more specialized (and more powerful in that special case), and there are PrC's that let you advance in some core class abilities (most often spellcasting, but sometimes turning undead, bardic music, and so on).

5) Are there any Core Classes that shouldn't multi-class into Prestige Classes? Core Classes that loose more than gain when multi-classing?

It always depends on the PrC, and your character concept.
Example:
You're a rogue. High-leveled rogues get special powers at 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th level, having the choice between fairly good stuff each time. If you multiclass, you will have less (or none of those powers). But some PrC's grant you some of those powers (though you usually cannot chose which). You could become shadow dancer, and gain improved evasion at 10th Shadowdancer level, so if you want that power, you could become Shadowdancer. In that case, you wouldn't get as much sneak attack bonus dice as with a straight rogue. If you don't care about the special abilities, but want the sneak attack, you could become an assassin, which gets that but none of the special rogue abilities.

6) Are there any Core Classes that should multi-class into Prestige Classes? Core Classes that gain more than loose when multi-classing?

Sorcerer and ranger are often mentioned at that (though in 3.5e, the Ranger will almost certainly be more attractive beyond 1st level, and sorcerers might get something else, too).

7) There are a lot of sourcebooks out there introducing new Prestige Classes from many D20 publishers but are there any sourcebooks introducing new Core Classes besides the Player's Handbook and Oriental Adventures? If so, which ones would you recommend?

Lots. Most D&D material from Wizards introduces at least a couple of new PrCs that contributes well to the rest of the book: the FRCS has some generic, but tailored-to-faerûn PrC's, Magic of Faerûn has Spellcaster - PrC's, Faiths and Pantheons Speciality Priests, the Manual of the Planes has Planar PrC's, The Unapproachable East PrC's for specialities from that area....

8) What are some of your favorite Prestige Classes and why? Which sourcebook from which publisher can I find them at? Do you like them because they are uber-cool for powergamers or because of atmosphere/character-development reasons for role-players?

My favorite would be the Bladesinger. It was first released in Tome and Blood (the Wizards' and Sorcerers' Guidebook), then errata'ed in the T&B Web Enhancement, and now made a new entry in Races of Faerûn (with some of its powers made more generic). It's the ultimate elven Warrior-Poet, combining all the Elves hold high in his fighting technique: Swordsmanship, Magic, Music, Dance. It's essentially a melee-warrior with some spellcasting ability and the ability to use arcane magic in melee without distraction or spell failure. Their magic focuses on spells that make you better in combat. (They have an own spell list, but can use their powers with whatever other arcane spells they can cast, though the most effecitve way for that class is almost straight fighter/bladesinger)
It's both powerful and offers great roleplaying opportunities.

The Arcane Trickster (also from T&B), a combination of Arcane Spellcasters (they advance their previous spellcasting class) and Rogues that can combine these two parts to get some additional tricks. In essence, it's a wizard or sorcerer (same BAB, same HD, same saves) with some roguish powers.

9) What are some of your least favorite Prestige Classes and why? Which sourcebook from which publisher describe these Prestige Classes that you do not like?

Forsaker (Masters of the Wild) - The must to destroy magic and the fact that they may not use any magic of have magic cast on them makes them inappropriate for almost all campaigns.

There are many other PrC's that aren't very interesting.

10) And the question that will never be settled, is it better to:

a) Single-class. (Better for which Core Class?)

b) Multi-class into another Core Class. (Better for which Core Class to multi-class into which Core Class?)

c) Multi-class into a Prestige Class. (Better for which Core Class to multi-class into which Prestige Class?)

d) Multi-class and use all your new experience points into advancing your second class and never advance your first class again, as long as you do not suffer the -20% XP penalty.

e) Multi-class and use your new experience points to advance both classes.

Depending on your character concept, on the core class, on the PrC (and the general amount of good PrC's for them), this can be any of the above.


Hmmm... Something else about the core classes (counting only those from the PHB, no additional ones, like those from OA or the PsiHB) and multiclassing:

Fighter: There are a lot of good and funny PrC's about. You surrender your Bonus Feats for some more specific Powers. Of special note is the Divine Champion (from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, short FRCS): He gets fighter bonus feats and special powers (and one more good save). As long as your character has an interest in religion (and ranks in Knowledge(religion)), this PrC almost always benefits your character.

Ranger: Don't gain to much on later levels (though this will change in 3.5e), so multiclassing will often be benefitical. If you take the Ranger for the skill points and class skill list the class offers, you might want to take special ranger PrC's. There are a couple of nice PrC's for rangers (and of course, the fighter-likes are often a good choice, too). The Deepwood Sniper, for example, will help you with ranged combat and builds on the rangers skills of stealth and reconaissance.

Paladins: Don't gain to much on later levels, either, but beware: it can be that you won't be able to return to the class, due to the special multiclassing restrictions. In addition to fighter-type PrC's, there are a couple of "holy warrior" themed classes.

Barbarian: If you multiclass from that, you'll have less uses of rage (though there are feats for that), less (or no) DR, miss the chance of greater rage (and ultimately to avoid being winded after the rage, though this isn't an issue to often, due to short durations of combats). There are several PrCs for ragers and berserkers out there that give you additional uses of rage, improve your rage, or give you something that stacks with rage (the frenzy of the frenzied berserker).

Warriors in Geneal: Fighers, Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians share good fortitute saves, high hit dice (d10 or even d12, in the case of the barbarian), and especially the good BAB progression (equal to the class levels). They can be mixed and matched almost at will, and many PrC's are equally well suited for all of them.

Clerics: Other than more power to turn (or rebuke) undead, clerics lose nothing when multiclassing (and one or two classes advance that, too), so most clerics that don't care about the undead will multiclass. There are many Speciality Priests of a specific Deity, plus lots of PrC's that turn the generic cleric into a special-purpose Priest (liek Inquisitor, or Divine Agent)

Druids: Druids have more to lose from multiclassing than clerics have: If you like the Wildshape ability much, you shouldn't multiclass - unless you find a PrC that has some wildshape - like ability (the Verdant Lord will let you wildshape into a treant once a day, and the Shifter will focus on wildshape, giving you lots of new possibilities for wildshape in size and shape - at the cost of spellcasting ability, since that won't increase with shifter levels). There are a couple of "Speciality Druids" out there (and even some "Anti-Druids" that Blight nature instead of nurturing it)

Monks: Will lose quite a lot when multiclassing, as they continue to get special qualities the whole time, plus their unarmed attack, their Monk AC bonus, their speed and their unarmed damage depend on monk levels. There are a handfull of "Monk-PrCs", though, whose levels can be added to the monk levels to determine these things. Monk PrC's often specialize in some special philosophy.

Rogues: They lose their nice special abilities (and possibly sneak attack) when multiclassing - so if you want those, go seek a PrC that grants you those abilities that you want. There are several nice PrC's for rogues, but many that are not so good (especially if you like sneak attacks). In general, the rogue class is versatile enough to emulate many concepts (they can be an assassin even without the Assassin PrC's death attack and spells - but they help)

Bards: After a lot of crappy Bard-PrC's, there are finally some good ones. In general, multiclasing means that the bard will have less uses of bardic music (though a few PrC's advance that) and maybe spellcasting power (though many bard PrC's advance that). The power of bardic music is determined by your ranks in Perform, so you'll be able to increase that even with levels in other classes. Nice PrC's include the Virtuoso (Song & Silence; the only decent bard PrC in the book), and the Warrior Skald and Spellsinger (both from Races of Faerûn).

Wizards/Sorcerers: Special abilities from familiars are tied to wizard levels, so multiclassing means your familiar has less abilities (though many wizards neglect their familiar, anyway). That's true for both wizards and Sorcerers, and for most, it isn't enough of a deterrence from multiclassing. Wizards get bonus feats in addition to that, and this is a better reason not to multiclass (but the powers of the PrC's more than make up for that most of the time). There are some classes that require you to be able to prepare spells (so they are closed to sorcerers, unless you take some special feats, and even then they are of limited use to him), and some require to be able to use arcane spells without preparation (so they're only open to sorcerers and bards).

Spellcasters (Especially Wiz, Sor, Clr, Drd - the "full-time-spellcasters"): Only classes that offer advancement of the spellcasting ability make sense for these classes, except when you want to make a combination of spellcasting and other powers. Many classes offer full advancement, some only every other level (this often means that the special powers of the class are very strong, or that it is a PrC for a class combo, like the Spellsword, a combination of fighter and wizard/sorcerer), and some have full progression except on one, two or three levels in 10 (e.g. every level but 1st, or but 1st, 5th and 10th). You must decide whether the abilities those PrCs grant make up for the loss in pure spellcasting power.
 


My favorite PrCs are:
Fighters:
Order of the Bow Initiate (Sword and Fist)
Tempest (Masters of the Wild)
Duelist (Sword and Fist)
Ninja of the Crescent Moon (Sword and Fist)
Master Samauri (Sword and Fist)
Dragon Disciple (Tome and Blood) (yes I know it's supposed to be a spellcasting PrC, but you can pretty easily meet the requirements in 1 or 2 Bard levels)

Rogues:
Arcane Trickster

Wizards:
Mage of the Arcane Order (Tome and Blood)
Mystic Theurge (Wizard's website, and the revised rule-books)

Clerics:
Can't think of any good ones
 
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Everyone has pretty much covered the basics of the whole Prestige Class concept for you. They have ended up going beyond what was originaly intended for them somewhat (not that thats a bad thing). as well as fleshing out campaign specfic roles...orginizations, religions etc...many prestige classes have been created to represent generic fantasy specialization concepts..specialists in certain forms of magic such as the Elemental Savant, mutliclass combinations with the Bladesinger, Spellsword and Arcane Trickster, warriors who focus on a certain weapon (Master of Chains, Lasher), or combat style (Duelist, various Archer types). Also some highly generic roles like Loremaster and Archmage.
Some people feel that prestige classes are problematic because they make it so a character has little reason to advance in a core class as oposed to taking a prestige class. Personaly, I dont feel that this is all that much of a problem because as has been mentioned the main reason most people take prestige classes with their characters is because prestige classes are focused concepts...and most people have focused concepts for their characters. If their is any problem in that area at all I'd say it has more to do with many core classes not offering much at higher levels.
Some of my own favorite prestige classes would include the Elemental Savant, the Bladesinger, the Archmage, the Arcane Trickster and the Loremaster.
As has been mentioned just about every blankety-blanking D20 system sourcebook has prestige classes. the "core splatbooks" mentioned(Tome and Blood Sword and Fist) etc has a great many, many of them good and often used and talked about. Magic of Faerun has a lot of nice ones to especialy if you like magic. and the revised DM guide is going to have many more prestige classes...totaly new ones, and many from other sources made core such as the Archmage and the Duelist.
 

Re: Re: Prestige Classes vs. Core Classes

Good info/advice there KaeYoss. I appreciate your response. Thanks.

One thing that you said in regards to multi-classing struck me though: You mentioned that:

"You lose the stuff of the core class (which you'd get if you advanced in that) and get the stuff from the PrC."

What stuff. What is it that a core class "looses" when multi-classing?

Does it work like it did in the 2nd edition, when after multi-classing you couldn't use the abilities of your first class and gained such abilities only after you had surpassed its level in your second class?

Or does it work like this: You loose the abilities of you first class only when your second class is "active" and/or only when you have higher levels in your second class than you have in your first class. Meaning that you can get the abilities of your first class back either when you first class is "re-activated" by returning to advance in your first class and/or when you have higher levels in your first class than you have in your second class.

I keep hearing that multi-classing is not beneficial to some classes that get good power/skills/abilities at higher levels like the Rogue, Wizard, and Monk. But why should that be if you can advance back and forth between two or more classes.

Sure, you may not be able to advance them equally at once like in the 2nd edition (Wizard 15th/Fighter 15th), but nevertheless, since you can keep advancing them back and forth then you can eventually have a Wizard 16th/Fighter 14th. Which means that you will have the abilities that people keep saying some core classes loose at higher levels if they multi-class.

Yes, it will take longer than if you single-classed because you have to divide your experience points between two classes but since the experience points needed to reach a level are so much lower than in the 2nd edition, it's not such a big deal.

Unless......I'm making an error in my interpretation of the rules. Does the 20th level cap apply when any ONE of your classes reaches 20th level (Fighter 20th/Bladesinger 10th) or when ALL the levels from ALL your classes added together reaches 20th level (Fighter 10th/Bladesinger 10th)?

If its the later then that puts a whole different spin on multi-classing from what we knew before in the 2nd edition and your choices although many in the 3rd edition have to be thought about carefully and I can see the point when people say that multi-classing may be detrimental to some core classes because they get good abilities at the higher levels.

But if its the former then I just don't understand the notion that multi-classing for some core classes may be bad because they loose out on good abilities at the higher levels. Since you can keep advancing back and forth between classes until one of them hit 20th level then eventually you are going to get those higher level abilities anyways so you might as well multi-class.

I think I'm missing something. I can't get my brain around it and it's driving my players insane. Please help!!
:confused: :( :confused:
 

Re: Re: Re: Prestige Classes vs. Core Classes

Unless......I'm making an error in my interpretation of the rules. Does the 20th level cap apply when any ONE of your classes reaches 20th level (Fighter 20th/Bladesinger 10th) or when ALL the levels from ALL your classes added together reaches 20th level (Fighter 10th/Bladesinger 10th)?

By Jove, I think he's got it! :)

Yeah. Once your character level (not class level) hits 20th, that's it... unless your DM has the Epic Level handbook. But the rules for Epic characters are... different.

Remember, if you have a 5th level Fighter, he needs a total of 15,000XP to reach 6th level. It doesn't matter if his 6th level is Ftr6, or Wiz1, or Rog1, or Bladesinger1... he still needs 15,000XP. A Rgr3/Rog2/Ftr4 is a 9th level character.

Not like Dual-Classing in 1E, where you went back to the 1250 XP you needed to hit second-level thief, or whatever.

-Hyp.
 

Re: Re: Re: Prestige Classes vs. Core Classes

Bluemoon said:

What stuff. What is it that a core class "looses" when multi-classing?

I keep hearing that multi-classing is not beneficial to some classes that get good power/skills/abilities at higher levels like the Rogue, Wizard, and Monk. But why should that be if you can advance back and forth between two or more classes.

"Opportunity Cost": the cost of a choice in terms of foregone alternatives. That is, by multiclassing or joining a Prestige Class, you'll never gain the high-level abilities many classes give, unless the PrC explicitly offers the same abilities. Very few PrCs give ALL of the abilities of the class you left, and those that do either add big drawbacks or are just plain broken. So, in general, you gravitate to the PrC that gives up the things you didn't want anyway but keeps the ones you do.

The big flying Smurf explained the level 20 cap. In 3E the XP amounts and level caps are based on character level (sum of all class levels). One note: in the chapter on classes in the PHB, everywhere you see "level" refers to "class level", since the class level vs. character level distinction isn't introduced until later in the book. So, Cleric domain powers depend on Cleric level, Wizard familiar abilities... well, they've been errata'd a few times, I don't know the latest ruling there.

And, things get really... different... after level 20. You can't just say "Oh, I went Ranger 1/Cleric 19, I gained another level, so I'll get that last Cleric level now." Epic levels don't really give the full class level benefits, instead giving you access to things like Epic Feats. Giving up levels in your main class isn't something to take lightly. It's not always a bad idea, of course, but it's not the automatic thing it was in 2E. Ever try playing a standard single-classed Fighter in a high-level campaign when two other people in the group are Avariel Fighter/Cleric/Mage with Psionics? (and yes, they rolled the 1% chance)

Also, advancing "back and forth" doesn't work for many classes. Besides the outright ban Monks and Paladins have to put up with (House Rule: these classes can still freely multiclass with the racial Favored Class), there are some classes where an even split just isn't helpful. Ranger is the obvious example here. A Fighter 4/Ranger 4 is seriously inferior to a Fighter 7/Ranger 1.

Other than the "1 or 2 levels in every class we can find that gives +1 BAB per level" crowd, most multiclassing is only two levels, is a "lopsided" multiclass (mostly one caster-type class with just a splash of a melee class or vice versa).

Anyway, Kae Yoss did a great class-by-class breakdown, although I'll add one point:
Depending on how many splatbooks you use, Fighters can either give up a lot, or give up nothing to join a PrC.
I mean, take a standard, level 20 Human Fighter. He gets 19 Feats (1 level 1, 1 at 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 1 bonus for Human, and 11 Fighter Bonus Feats). NINETEEN FEATS. As opposed to the 7 practically everyone else gets.
Now, go through the PHB and find nineteen feats that Fighters would find useful. Even if we assume your Fighter still has the stats for it, you run out of good stuff to take by level 10. So, sacrificing those last 5 bonus feats isn't really much of a drawback. (Although, to balance it, Fighters suck when it comes to meeting skill prerequisites, so unless they multiclass their pool of PrCs is limited.)
Now, add the splatbooks, and you siddenly have a lot of neat Feats to choose from. Sword and Fist will help a ton. Heck, just take the three +2 save feats, then their Greater versions, then Luck of Heroes, there go seven Feats right there if you want.
 

I thnik you've got multiclassing confused. Unlike in 2e 3e allows free nulticlassing. A 1Wiz/1Rog picks locks as 1 rog and casts spells as 1 wiz. The reason why this is considered not as beneficial for Wiz, Sorc, and Mon is because of the fact that it interupts progression of these abilities. Of course, some PrC allow you to continue advancing in these abilities, so this is a moot point when talking about PrCs.
 

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