Knightfall
World of Kulan DM
takasi said:
Cool!
Looking forward to the revised adventure, not to mention the adventure index.
KF72
Previews for Dungeon 137, 138, 139 and Dragon 346, 347, 348
- Thread starter takasi
- Start date
Cool!
Looking forward to the revised adventure, not to mention the adventure index.
KF72
We've got FR content in some of these issues. Like I said, we have to write these solicitations months before the magazines get produced. In that time we've accepted at least two good FR submissions, and I've got another one on my desk that clocks in at..... 20 Microsoft Word pages.
So there's FR stuff coming, I assure you.
--Erik
So there's FR stuff coming, I assure you.
--Erik
takasi
First Post
Whizbang Dustyboots said:Man, it's a shame there's no generic D&D content for all those FR fans.
Come on now, that's not really the point for some people. Why doesn't Dungeon add flavor and adapt some of its more watered down Plain Jane vanilla sword and sorcery adventures to worlds like Greyhawk, Eberron or the Forgotten Realms? Their logic (though I disagree with it) is that fans of settings want adventures that were designed from the ground up to be a part of the setting. Well, isn't it logical that some DMs might have the same high standards for what "generic" material they will use too? There is a much larger supply of "generic" material out on the market, and it makes sense that some people are going to pass on some of Paizo's products if they're only churning out the same old same old.
Ironically, Paizo prefers generic, modular material that isn't tied to specific settings yet they appear to be working on more "Core Beliefs" articles. What makes the Greyhawk deities "core" is that almost no information aside from domains and mechanics are provided in the PHB, thus they are generic and portable names to be developed for any setting. Fleshing them out with setting material contradicts their purpose as presented in the PHB.
They should retitle the articles "Greyhawk Beliefs", because they are clearly tied to the setting of Greyhawk. Paizo is producing a piecemeal Faiths of Oerth, and if it's popular it's not because it's portable it's because it's a bone to throw to lore-starved Greyhawk fans. These articles are NOT core at all. They're tied to specific events, organizations and locations and they are clearly setting specific material. They read like CANON. Their success is proof that people enjoy flavorful material that is tied to an assumed backdrop. It also helps if they're written by top notched pro game designers who practically have doctorates in the history of the assumed world.
mhacdebhandia
Explorer
On the other hand, I love those articles, and everything I know about Greyhawk I learned from reading about it on forums like this one. To me, it's not exciting that the articles are tied to the history of a specific setting - what's exciting is simply the fact of these deities being fleshed out at all.takasi said:
I'd be just as happy to have articles of the same imaginative and creative quality that gave these core deities a completely original, non-Greyhawk background! The only reason I have for not actually pushing for it on a grand, multiple-forum crusade is that I'm glad Greyhawk fans are getting a kick out of this article series and the Demonomicon of Igg'wilv series - since, as far as I'm concerned, Sean Reynolds could be making everything up out of whole cloth, and I wouldn't know the difference.
takasi
First Post
I'm not saying the material is rehashed. By "fleshing out" the core deities Paizo is developing a backdrop. The backdrop is world specific material that's no more generic or portable than if it were from the Forgotten Realms, Eberron or something brand new.
Would the article be as appealing if it wasn't so specific and detailed? If it didn't assume so many details like the type, placement and location of shrines, what the religious symbols represent, how clerics dress, when holidays are observed, where their planar realms are, their myths and origins, their summon monster lists, their planar allies, etc?
The articles present very detailed information that's clearly setting specific material. A more generic and portable article would present ways to develop gods of rogues and bards, with tables and suggestions for generating holidays, various styles of dress, planar realms, etc. It would read like suggestions for world development, not de facto "core" standards littered with proper nouns and canon.
mhacdebhandia
Explorer
Blah, blah, blah . . . you didn't understand my post.takasi said:
I'm saying that I am one person who really likes these articles not because they have anything to do with Greyhawk but because they are high-quality, in-depth treatments of their subject matter. I literally would not have a clue if the contents of these articles conforms to Greyhawk canon, except inasmuch as people who love Greyhawk say they do on forums like EN World.
Yes, it is setting-specific, but it could be "set" in a world that Sean Reynolds completely made up as he wrote it, and I'd like it just as much: what I like is the creation of legends, holidays, traditions, et cetera.
My point in posting was to provide evidence that there is at least one person who appreciates the Core Beliefs articles not out of a love for Greyhawk - I couldn't care less - but rather because I appreciate the contents of the articles per se.
Conversely, I am not in the slightest bit interested in an article which would be a "toolkit" for creating legends, holidays, traditions, and the like for homebrewed deities. First, I don't believe that it's possible to write such an article that wouldn't be vague, obvious advice like "legends should illustrate doctrinal teachings" and "holidays should celebrate great events in the history of the faith". Second, I think that it's much more inspirational to see examples of these principles than it is to have the principles themselves described - when we study religion academically, we don't just talk about these phenomena, we learn by looking at specific examples from religions around the globe.
My point in posting is to counteract your thesis that the Core Beliefs articles are only popular because there's a legion of desperate Greyhawk fans out there. There may well be - but I think the articles are excellent and useful regardless of their connection to what is, to me, a pretty dull and pedestrian D&D setting.
takasi
First Post
Read what I said after support from Greyhawk fans:
"Their success is proof that people enjoy flavorful material that is tied to an assumed backdrop. It also helps if they're written by top notched pro game designers who practically have doctorates in the history of the assumed world."
Everything you said supports this. It has nothing to do with the fact that it's generic or portable. It doesn't matter if it's Greyhawk, Eberron, Seanland or whatever.
"Their success is proof that people enjoy flavorful material that is tied to an assumed backdrop. It also helps if they're written by top notched pro game designers who practically have doctorates in the history of the assumed world."
Everything you said supports this. It has nothing to do with the fact that it's generic or portable. It doesn't matter if it's Greyhawk, Eberron, Seanland or whatever.
delericho
Legend
Actually, I think I agree with takasi on this one: the "Core Beliefs" articles are, essentially, setting-specific. However, in their case, they're of use not only to Greyhawk fans, but also to any group playing in a "Greyhawk-lite" default setting. I have no idea how many groups this includes, though, nor how many of them are interested in seeing the gods fleshed out by these articles.
I really like the "Core Beliefs" articles. However, if there was an FR equivalent, I wouldn't read it, and would complain about so much of the magazine being devoted to them. I know about the FR gods, and they don't interest me. (If there was an Eberron equivalent, I would read it, since I don't know about the Eberron gods. However, even then I would probably use less of the article than I do of the current "Core Beliefs".)
The other two article series that have been really excellent recently, the Creature Collection and the Demonomicon, truly are setting-neutral, though. Refusing to buy an issue because it includes no FR-specific material, when it does include one or the other of these two features, strikes me as an odd decision, to be honest.
Before the Crash, someone suggested that one way to get FR and Eberron material into every issue of Dragon might be to add a feature similar to Class Acts - a two-page article for each setting each month. I thought that was a good idea, and so bears repeating.
I really like the "Core Beliefs" articles. However, if there was an FR equivalent, I wouldn't read it, and would complain about so much of the magazine being devoted to them. I know about the FR gods, and they don't interest me. (If there was an Eberron equivalent, I would read it, since I don't know about the Eberron gods. However, even then I would probably use less of the article than I do of the current "Core Beliefs".)
The other two article series that have been really excellent recently, the Creature Collection and the Demonomicon, truly are setting-neutral, though. Refusing to buy an issue because it includes no FR-specific material, when it does include one or the other of these two features, strikes me as an odd decision, to be honest.
Before the Crash, someone suggested that one way to get FR and Eberron material into every issue of Dragon might be to add a feature similar to Class Acts - a two-page article for each setting each month. I thought that was a good idea, and so bears repeating.
takasi
First Post
delericho said:
Personally I see this as a contradiction. Some groups want to play a game that's doesn't delve too heavily into the setting. They want a light beer and pretzels game.
I'll reiterate what I said before the crash. Core Beliefs paints a highly detailed but incredibly small slice of a world that's much more abstract to many players. It's like buying a 16 page city supplement that devotes two pages to the general makeup of the city and a general map and then spends the other 14 pages detailing the blacksmith shop. If you were going to run the city it would be strange if you had so much detail already available for the blacksmith shop but very few details, if any, on the tavern, the temple, the garrison, etc.
delericho
Legend
takasi said:
That's fair. However, while reading the "Core Beliefs: Olidammara" article, I was struck with how cool it would be to play a Cleric/Rogue associated with that deity. That meant that the article had value to me quite aside from any connection to a setting. The same would almost certainly not have been true of a generic article about "Gods of Rogues".
Presumably, you wouldn't argue the same way if they produced a hardback "Faiths of Greyhawk" book compiling the equivalent of the Core Beliefs for all the core deities? If I'm right (and you would not), why is it so much worse for them to produce the same material spread out across a few years of Dragon magazines, when that is what is mandated by the conditions of publishing a monthly magazine? (Bearing in mind that eventually we will have a full series, assuming it remains popular, the people involved don't get bored, and circumstances don't change such that continuing becomes either pointless or impossible.)
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