Previews for Dungeon 148 and Dragon 357 (July 2007)

[Nightfall]

Hey I ALWAYS open the box. It's the only way to keep my life from sucking.

 

[James Jacobs]

Well, actually, we can, since the authors of those books have said, on these very forums, that the material they turned in specifically said these were the stats for avatars/aspects/manifestations, and that sentence got lost somewhere in editing.

Yup. I wrote the demon lords section in FC1, and they were intended from the start to be aspects of the real thing. The concept wasn't stated strongly enough in the book, and when FC2 came along it was.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

The mechanical significance of any creature or character in a campaign setting is dependent upon the relative measure of its personal power against the overall power level of the setting.

Theres nothing in any of the setting books that suggests PCs level up quicker or slower in one compared to another. So your argument falls flat on its face at the first hurdle.

The Forgotten Realms "needs" a CR 66 Demogorgon, where Eberron does not, because it has been well-established that the most powerful heroes and villains in the Forgotten Realms are higher level - and more powerful in other respects: Elminster's status as a Chosen of Mystra, for instance - than heroes and villains in Eberron.

Sul Khatesh beats Elminster in every department, So does Iuz the Old. Greyhawk has lots of high level characters and lets remember the Flanaess is only a small portion of the world compared to Faerun.

So again, there is no real reason to suggest one world is overtly more powerful than another. Also each incarnation of the game has a tendency to slightly up the levels of its NPCs and the real reason for the Realms NPCs 'spurt' is probably due to continued novel support (whih Greyhawk lacks). Eberron is only in its first incarnation, thus it only makes sense the main NPCs will be slighty lower level. I'm sure by the time we get to 5th Edition Elminster will be something like 50th-level and the Eberron personalities will be into the 30's.

Added to which the difference, in terms of overall power between levels is lessened at epic levels. The difference between a 1st-level character and a 9th-level character is far greater than the difference between a 31st-level character and a 39th-level character.

If Demogorgon existed in Eberron at a CR 66 level of power, it would completely alter the balance of power in the setting

Irrelevant to keep referring to Eberron when it doesn't even use the great whell cosmology.

There are dozens of deities, but you don't go around saying St. Cuthbert has altered the balance of power in Greyhawk. You don't randomly encounter St. Cuthbert while traipsing across Furyondy.

Demogorgon is an immortal native to the Abyss, hes not something you add to a random encounter table for Oerth or Toril.

- nothing else which is not enormously restricted in its abilities as are rajahs like Sul Khatesh even approaches that level.

According to my calculations Sul Khatesh is in the neighbourhood of CR 55.

More to the point: a CR 23 Demogorgon in Eberron does not damage Demogorgon's status in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms one whit. There is no Abyss in Eberron, Demogorgon is not the Prince of Demons, and his being killed by a legendary (for Eberron) party of 20th-level adventurers means absolutely nothing for other settings, where he will not be dead.

Again, cart before the horse. You are trying to shoehorn Demogorgon into some preconceived notion of what each setting 'needs'. Instead of simply creating Demogorgon the character, you are creating Demogorgon the plot device.

Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss is not an Eberron sourcebook, and the only way one can use it for an Eberron campaign is by heavily and liberally adapting its material to suit the specifics of the Eberron setting. Demogorgon doesn't even canonically exist in Eberron - adaptation notes for the Savage Tide adventure path don't exactly count - but if he did he would have to be different from his Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms versions because those versions have no place in Eberron.

You make two false assumptions:

1) That Eberron PCs advance slower than Oerth/Toril PCs.
2) That Demogorgon is somehow integral to any Campaign Setting.

I'm putting the cart before the horse?

Yes. You are trying to shoehorn Demogorgon into an illogical power bracket, which is akin to creating a 10th-level Wizard, calling him Elminster and then having your PCs defeat him, just so they can brag they killed Elminster.

DEMOGORGON (Doing his best Doctor McCoy impression)
"I'm a character, not a plot device!"

If people want to use demons in a low-level campaign with 4th-level PCs, they don't use a 4 HD Balor with reduced stats and abilities - because then it wouldn't be a real Balor! Instead they use demons of the appropriate challenge rating.

You're the guy claiming that Demogorgon must be the same no matter what setting he appears in,

The alternative makes no logical sense! Demogorgon should have one set of stats representing his manifestation.

with no regard whatsoever for what would actually be logical and appropriate for each setting. If that's not the tail wagging the dog, I don't know what is.

Demogorgon is no more of a setting specific monster than a Red Dragon is, or a Dire Wolf, or a Beholder.

This is exactly why I favour the separation of the settings in Third Edition, Plane of Shadow and other possibilities (which is all they are) notwithstanding.

I am sure WotC would love to release the Monster Manuals with slightly tweaked stats for each individual setting based on some ephemeral power curve you have imagined, but frankly I don't see a lot of people falling for it.

The assumptions and needs of the Forgotten Realms are distinctly different from the needs of every other setting, and there is absolutely no reason why the specific version of a concept in the highest-powered setting should dictate the power level of similar concepts in other settings.

Utter rubbish unless you can point to the section of text in the FRCS book which clearly states PCs level up faster on Faerun than they do in the Flanaess.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Mouseferatu!

Well, actually, we can, since the authors of those books have said, on these very forums, that the material they turned in specifically said these were the stats for avatars/aspects/manifestations, and that sentence got lost somewhere in editing.

An irrelevant conceit given that their realms are set up to accomodate those CR 20 (or whatever) princes as the de facto rulers.

So if those are not the real demon princes, then they must not be the real realms either.

As I mentioned recently in another thread, you couldn't remake Q1: Queen of the Demonweb Pits in 3rd Edition, because the disparity between Lolth and her subordinates (as per FCI) is much too great. Either everything leading up to the confrontation with Lolth would be an irrelevance (assuming the PCs were powerful enough to threaten Lolth herself), or (assuming the PCs were powerful enough that Lolth's subordinates represented an actual challenge), when the PCs finally met Lolth she would just crush them like a bug*.

*which would be ironic if nothing else.

So while you can say the demon prince stats are just aspects/avatars, they are really just hollow words, unsupported by the rest of the text.

 

[Nightfall]

I support James and Krusty's Orcus'. If only because then I'll find some middle ground.

Or not.

 

[FunkBGR]

Hey James -

Thanks! I really appreciate the Demonicon and the FC1 / FC2 stuff. It lets me upgrade as necessary, and since I don't run epic-level campaign worlds, it makes my 15th to 20th level PC's feel like their accomplishing something when they go up against some demon-baddy and take him down.

- Bryan

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Nightfall mate!

I support James and Krusty's Orcus'. If only because then I'll find some middle ground.

Or not.

I think with regards to the BoVD/Demonomicon article versions or where I would place them its pretty subjective. Although I think the point of whether they are deities themselves or mere lapdogs of the gods is a pertinent one.

Whereas the Fiendish Codex versions are indefensible from a philosophical standpoint.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Theres nothing in any of the setting books that suggests PCs level up quicker or slower in one compared to another.

Well, actually, there is.

NPCs in Eberron typically use NPC classes. Experienced veteran soldiers might be warrior 3. The highest-level person in Sharn is a 19th-level commoner, and she's extremely old.

The overall power level of Eberron is low, because most people don't even have PC classes and even those who do are likely to be 12th level rather than 20th. The only 20th-level PC-classed character in the entire book is a 20th-level awakened greatpine druid who spends most of his time sleeping. Even Sul Khatesh is bound in place and restricted in ability by the Silver Flame.

So Eberron does, explicitly, establish that its demographics trend lower, and to a majority of NPC-classed NPCs, than the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. There's a Dragonshard article about it on Wizards of the Coast's website.

 

[Alzrius]

Well, actually, there is.

NPCs in Eberron typically use NPC classes. Experienced veteran soldiers might be warrior 3. The highest-level person in Sharn is a 19th-level commoner, and she's extremely old.

The overall power level of Eberron is low, because most people don't even have PC classes and even those who do are likely to be 12th level rather than 20th. The only 20th-level PC-classed character in the entire book is a 20th-level awakened greatpine druid who spends most of his time sleeping. Even Sul Khatesh is bound in place and restricted in ability by the Silver Flame.

So Eberron does, explicitly, establish that its demographics trend lower, and to a majority of NPC-classed NPCs, than the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. There's a Dragonshard article about it on Wizards of the Coast's website.

You're talking about NPCs with levels in PC classes. U_K was talking about actual player-characters. There's a big difference there.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

You're talking about NPCs with levels in PC classes. U_K was talking about actual player-characters. There's a big difference there.

Oh, but I thought that the issue was verisimilitude of the setting. Like, for instance, whether or not a CR 24 Demogorgon is plausible as the most powerful demon in the Abyss.

That doesn't really have much to do with the PCs' own power level.

Anyway, I'm done with the argument. If Upper_Krust really doesn't think that different campaigns have different levels of power and therefore different needs, then we just don't have any basis for a conversation.