Previews for Dungeon 148 and Dragon 357 (July 2007)

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again James!

Actually... according to market research (and supported by my own experience over the last several years spent working on Dungeon), WotC's doing about the right amount of support for Epic games.

So, none then! j/k

The unfortunate truth of the matter is that the vast majority of D&D players lose interest in a campaign well before 20th level. The amount of players interested in epic material (of which I count myself as one) is relatively small. Smaller than psionics fans.

WotC would actually hurt themselves more by devoting more resources to epic material, I fear, since they'd be working harder to produce books that would appeal to a MUCH smaller group of customers.

Surely for a book where epic material not only makes sense, but where it is actually illogical not to have epic material, it wouldn't hurt anyone if they have a few pages of epic content?

I think part of the problem was that the Epic Level Handbook (and by extension Deities & Demigods) were pretty lacklustre, uninspiring efforts from WotC and that turned off a lot of of those gamers who might have tried it.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Doesn't Eberron have a bunch of 30-40th-level Rakshasas; the 'Lords of Dust'?

The Lords of Dust aren't that powerful, if memory serves. The rakshasa rajahs, or overlords, whom they serve would exceed that level of power, but each of them is bound to a single location within the "underdark" of Khyber.

I disagree. The best case scenario would be to have one version of Demogorgon that made sense.

Theres no valid reason why Demogorgon should have different stats when he shows up in Greyhawk to when he shows up in Mystara.

Of course there is. Greyhawk isn't Mystara isn't the Forgotten Realms isn't Eberron isn't Planescape.

Especially in the case of Eberron and the Forgotten Realms, which are officially divorced from the Greyhawk/Planescape Great Wheel cosmology, it makes precisely no sense to have a singular version of a given character who appears in multiple different settings for the sake of "realism" or "consistency".

If there's no connection between the settings - or if there is, such as we kinda-sorta have in the case of Planescape and Greyhawk, but each setting has an entirely different set of emphases and underlying principles - there's absolutely no reason to impose a single, highest-possible-power-level version of the character upon each setting that features it.

To use James's example, Eberron and Greyhawk don't need the CR 66 Demogorgon which the Forgotten Realms might require, nor do those settings benefit in any way from imposing a CR 66 Demogorgon upon them given the consequences of introducing such a powerful being into a setting which does not and cannot account for its presence, as the Forgotten Realms can.

Likewise, Shemeska could argue that his vision of Planescape requires deities and demon lords to be ultimately unstatted and unstattable, because they're not defeatable in simple face-to-face confrontations - they simply don't operate on any kind of level that can be codified by game mechanics, though characters which are codified by game mechanics can have an effect on such beings through appropriate (narrative) means.

 

[Alzrius]

The Lords of Dust aren't that powerful, if memory serves. The rakshasa rajahs, or overlords, whom they serve would exceed that level of power, but each of them is bound to a single location within the "underdark" of Khyber.

The top members of the Lords of Dust have CRs in the mid-20's, as I recall.

The one rakshasa rajah who's been given full stats is Sul Khatesh, who has no CR given (as per the D&Dg guidelines) but has the powers and abilities of a rank 7 deitiy (albeit not actually being a god).

Of course there is. Greyhawk isn't Mystara isn't the Forgotten Realms isn't Eberron isn't Planescape.

Especially in the case of Eberron and the Forgotten Realms, which are officially divorced from the Greyhawk/Planescape Great Wheel cosmology, it makes precisely no sense to have a singular version of a given character who appears in multiple different settings for the sake of "realism" or "consistency".

Except that this only applies if you're out-and-out stating that there are parallels of various characters in different cosmologies, and that opens up its own host of problems.

And of course, the various D&D campaigns are not divorced from each other - various crossover instances are still going on, and it's common knowledge that the Plane of Shadow connects the cosmologies (the Player's Guide to Faerun, for example, explicitly mentions Greyhawk in this regard).

Likewise, Shemeska could argue that his vision of Planescape requires deities and demon lords to be ultimately unstatted and unstattable, because they're not defeatable in simple face-to-face confrontations - they simply don't operate on any kind of level that can be codified by game mechanics, though characters which are codified by game mechanics can have an effect on such beings through appropriate (narrative) means.

It's much easier to have stats for beings and not use them, then to want to use said stats and not have them.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello there mhacdehandia!

The Lords of Dust aren't that powerful, if memory serves. The rakshasa rajahs, or overlords, whom they serve would exceed that level of power, but each of them is bound to a single location within the "underdark" of Khyber.

My mistake, I was actually thinking about the Overlords.

Sul Khatesh, the Keeper of Secrets: Rakshasa Overlord wizard 36/archmage 4.

Of course there is. Greyhawk isn't Mystara isn't the Forgotten Realms isn't Eberron isn't Planescape.

So what!? If Elminster travels to Oerth does he lose levels? Is a Balor on Mystara any different from a Balor on Eberron? No.

There is no reason why Demogorgon should have different stats depending on which campaign setting he features in anymore than any NPC or Monster should have different stats.

Especially in the case of Eberron and the Forgotten Realms, which are officially divorced from the Greyhawk/Planescape Great Wheel cosmology, it makes precisely no sense to have a singular version of a given character who appears in multiple different settings for the sake of "realism" or "consistency".

Of course it makes sense. Does it say on the Fiendish Codex "Greyhawk only"? "Forgotten Realms only"? "Eberron only"? No, it doesn't, because it makes no sense to have different stats for these beings tailored for each campaign setting.

If there's no connection between the settings - or if there is, such as we kinda-sorta have in the case of Planescape and Greyhawk, but each setting has an entirely different set of emphases and underlying principles - there's absolutely no reason to impose a single, highest-possible-power-level version of the character upon each setting that features it.

Yes there is. Just like in the Monsters of Faerun, or Eberron or whatever other book. They don't redo the Monster Manual monsters with different stats because it would be a waste of time. There is one incarnation of the Balor, one incarnation of Red Dragon, one of Dire Wolf.

To use James's example, Eberron and Greyhawk don't need the CR 66 Demogorgon which the Forgotten Realms might require, nor do those settings benefit in any way from imposing a CR 66 Demogorgon upon them given the consequences of introducing such a powerful being into a setting which does not and cannot account for its presence, as the Forgotten Realms can.

You are putting the cart before the horse.

Added to which there is nothing in the various Setting books which state PCs (which is exactly who you are addressing when you say 'need' and 'require') should have more levels or less levels than the core rulebooks. You could just as easily have a 50th-level PC born on Oerth as you could Toril.

Likewise, Shemeska could argue that his vision of Planescape requires deities and demon lords to be ultimately unstatted and unstattable, because they're not defeatable in simple face-to-face confrontations - they simply don't operate on any kind of level that can be codified by game mechanics, though characters which are codified by game mechanics can have an effect on such beings through appropriate (narrative) means.

It takes Shemeska a millisecond to ignore demon prince stats, which is a heck of a lot less than it takes the rest of us who want them to conjure the stats up. Multiply that amount of time by the number of gamers who want them and its a heck of a lot of 'man hours*'

*...and thats not some sort of Deuce Bigalow reference.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

The mechanical significance of any creature or character in a campaign setting is dependent upon the relative measure of its personal power against the overall power level of the setting.

The Forgotten Realms "needs" a CR 66 Demogorgon, where Eberron does not, because it has been well-established that the most powerful heroes and villains in the Forgotten Realms are higher level - and more powerful in other respects: Elminster's status as a Chosen of Mystra, for instance - than heroes and villains in Eberron.

If Demogorgon existed in Eberron at a CR 66 level of power, it would completely alter the balance of power in the setting - nothing else which is not enormously restricted in its abilities as are rajahs like Sul Khatesh even approaches that level.

More to the point: a CR 23 Demogorgon in Eberron does not damage Demogorgon's status in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms one whit. There is no Abyss in Eberron, Demogorgon is not the Prince of Demons, and his being killed by a legendary (for Eberron) party of 20th-level adventurers means absolutely nothing for other settings, where he will not be dead.

Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss is not an Eberron sourcebook, and the only way one can use it for an Eberron campaign is by heavily and liberally adapting its material to suit the specifics of the Eberron setting. Demogorgon doesn't even canonically exist in Eberron - adaptation notes for the Savage Tide adventure path don't exactly count - but if he did he would have to be different from his Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms versions because those versions have no place in Eberron.

I'm putting the cart before the horse? You're the guy claiming that Demogorgon must be the same no matter what setting he appears in, with no regard whatsoever for what would actually be logical and appropriate for each setting. If that's not the tail wagging the dog, I don't know what is.

This is exactly why I favour the separation of the settings in Third Edition, Plane of Shadow and other possibilities (which is all they are) notwithstanding. The assumptions and needs of the Forgotten Realms are distinctly different from the needs of every other setting, and there is absolutely no reason why the specific version of a concept in the highest-powered setting should dictate the power level of similar concepts in other settings.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

The one rakshasa rajah who's been given full stats is Sul Khatesh, who has no CR given (as per the D&Dg guidelines) but has the powers and abilities of a rank 7 deitiy (albeit not actually being a god).

Yeah, it seems I was remembering mostly correctly - Sul Khatesh is a 40-HD creature, but he's not CR 40 or anywhere near it with those divine powers.

I want to be clear: I am not personally arguing that any creature in D&D should be unstatted, as Shemeska might argue demon lords and deities should.

What I am arguing is simply this: there is no utility in applying the power level assumptions of one setting to all of them. A CR 23 or 36 Demogorgon has a place in Eberron - the place Keith Baker gives him in the Savage Tide conversion notes is perfect - where he would have no place in the Forgotten Realms because he's simply not powerful enough for his supposed role.

More than this, individual games within individual settings have different needs. A campaign which explicitly never exceeds 20th level by design doesn't need a CR 36 Demogorgon, which is a challenge the PCs can never hope to survive without DM fiat and deus ex machina; likewise, a level 60+ epic character would wipe that CR 36 Demogorgon out with his sneezes, so if you want Demogorgon to be a formidable opponent for that character and his group you need him to be tougher.

Both of these games could be played in Greyhawk.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

And since they were entirely seperate games with completely divergent in-game histories, it makes using certain things from D&D somewhat... awkward... in AD&D/3.x. Draedens and Umbral Blots I'm looking at you. It makes things interesting, both in the good way and the Chinese curse manner.

The Umbral Blots (Blackballs) I understand- they're basically the D&D version of Annihilation Spheres (which weren't present in the game) so 'porting them over to AD&D/3.x is kind of redundant.

Not sure I understand your point about the Draeden, though. AFAIK, the Draeden never existed in any other setting other than D&D until their recent mention in the FC1. (Unless your point was in regards to their power level, which is astronomical, in which case I can see where you're coming from.)

 

[Mouseferatu]

You can't say those were intended as Avatars/Aspect stats because that was a retcon only mentioned in FCII and I suspect was a kneejerk to the criticism they got after FCI.

Well, actually, we can, since the authors of those books have said, on these very forums, that the material they turned in specifically said these were the stats for avatars/aspects/manifestations, and that sentence got lost somewhere in editing.

 

[Nightfall]

Geez...

All I wanted was an Orcus that didn't suck...and had better artwork!

next time I'll just keep my mouth shut.

 

[BOZ]

maybe next time no one will open Pandora's box... on second thought, of course they will.