Previews for Dungeon 148 and Dragon 357 (July 2007)

[Arnwyn]

Well... no matter WHAT CR Demogorgon ends up being, I guarentee it'll be too low for someone. Same for the others.

The way I've been setting up these articles so far, the demon lords generally run from CR 24 to 32. I suspect Demogorgon'll end up being the lone CR 32 in the series, with Orcus, Graz'zt, and Obox-ob being the only CR 31s in the series (if I ever get to them, which I hope I do).

And this is the best option.

My only hope was that you would be "consistent with the rest of the (vitually universally lauded) articles in the Demonomicon series". Stick to the formula you've been using so far, and you're sure to receive the fewest complaints.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey James!

Not to open a can of worms or anything... but what would a version of Orcus have to do in order not to suck?

Manifestation: 67 Hit Dice Intermediate Deity (CR 84 w. full equipment* or CR 63 with just Wand). Integrated class features (not class levels) of a 33rd-level Cleric with the ability to cast Necromantic arcane spells as divine spells.

Huge size; Str 62, Dex 24, Con 52, Int 40, Wis 52, Cha 46

Avatar: 33 Hit Dice Demi-deity (CR 42 w. full equipment* or CR 31 with just Wand). Integrated class features (not class levels) of a 16th-level Cleric with the ability to cast Necromantic arcane spells as divine spells.

Large size; Str 38, Dex 19, Con 37, Int 27, Wis 33, Cha 30

Aspect: 16 Hit Dice Hero-deity (CR 21 w. full equipment* or CR 15 with just Wand). Integrated class features (not class levels) of an 8th-level Cleric with the ability to cast Necromantic arcane spells as divine spells.

Large size; Str 29, Dex 14, Con 24, Int 19, Wis 22, Cha 20

*Arm of Orcus (golden armour worn in recent illos), Orcusring, Orcusword, Wand of Orcus. The Avatar and Aspects would wield appropriately weaker facsimilies of the real artifacts.

e.g. The true Orcusword (wielded by the manifestation) would be akin to a +23 chaotic power, defending, unholy power, vorpal longsword. While the version wielded by the Aspect could simply be a +5 defending, vorpal longsword.

This way you have a version (Aspect) for those who wish to encounter 'Orcus' at non-epic levels. You have a version (Avatar) for those who wish to end their campaign battling such a foe at 20th-level or slightly higher, and you have the 'real' Orcus (Manifestation) who commands millions of demons and undead for those epic gamers looking to cause trouble in the Abyss.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

Well... no matter WHAT CR Demogorgon ends up being, I guarentee it'll be too low for someone. Same for the others.

Not if the CR fits the character within the context of the setting.

People don't go around saying Driz'zt or Elminster are too low level, because their levels fit the characters and make sense within the setting. But if Elminster is an example of the most powerful character we can expect in 'a' world, surely the most powerful demon in the Abyss commanding millions upon millions of subordinates and having existed for countless millenia should be more powerful than Elminster...its only common sense.

Its not like Elminster is Waldorf here. Most campaign worlds have examples of NPCs of 30th-level or thereabouts when you get to the upper echelons.

The way I've been setting up these articles so far, the demon lords generally run from CR 24 to 32. I suspect Demogorgon'll end up being the lone CR 32 in the series, with Orcus, Graz'zt, and Obox-ob being the only CR 31s in the series (if I ever get to them, which I hope I do).

Are those CR scores too low? For some games, absolutely. But if I've learned anything about Demon Lord CRs from my work on FC1, it's that you can't please everyone. Best to aim for myself on this one, and I like Demogorgon at CR 32, since that fits best for what I've got planned for Savage Tide if the PCs mess up bad.

I agree with you that you can't please all the people all of the time, but if you can make an objective argument for why a certain character is a certain power level, if it makes 'sense', then there can be no solid ground for any criticism.

You simply cannot make an objective argument for why Demogorgon would be CR 23 or even CR 30/32.

That said, I am still looking forward to both the Demonomicon articles and the Savage Tide conclusion (though I am waiting for the hardback).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Okay, one more!

Demon lord titles are kind of meaningless. They don't grant powers. They're mostly just bragging rights. If you're tough enough, you can call yourself Prince of Demons and the others just have to take it, at least, until they can engineer your downfall. So far, no one's been able to do that to Demogorgon, so he's kept the title since he snatched it from Mishka.

Of course, Obox-ob had the title for untold eons before Mishka had it.

I always liked the idea of:

Demon Monarch ~ rules multiple layers
Demon Prince ~ rules single layer
Demon Lord ~ rules part of a layer
Demonic Champion ~ holds sway over one Fortress/Location

 

[Shemeska]

Not if the CR fits the character within the context of the setting.

Krust,

Not everyone believes that everything should be firmly statted out, catagorized and defined in some absolute hierarchy of power. Not everything does, or even should, operate on the same scale as everything else, nor should they all necessarily be judged by the same criteria. A CR 8000 Lynkhab versus a CR 7548 Yeenoghu or even a rather than a CR5000 quark-matter skinned fiendish aboleth from layer 3856 of the Abyss would be a nightmare of chapters worth of statblocks, and at the same time it limits such beings to only what the numbers provide; gone is the mystery, gone is the atmosphere, and gone is the idea that two abyssal lords are creatures of malevolent chaos because you know right there in chapter 5 and 6 are their stat blocks and everything that they could ever do.

That's antithetical to the play style that some of us have.

Setting a true and absolute statblock for planar powers, gods, etc is on some level IMO a misguided exercise in futility that ultimately diminshes the beings you're trying to define, or overly define as the case might be. The notion from FC:I and FC:II of putting out a CR20-30 avatar/aspect of an abyssal lord or similar being, something that has a realistic chance of being used in a majority of games, seems to me to be a good solution because it leaves the upper boundary of that archfiend's power an open question that individual DM's can then choose to define as they see fit within their campaigns, and at the same time that solution doesn't wreck the setting by trying to place a CR21 archfiend over an infinity of CR20 etc minions. We can have our cake and eat it too.

 

[Alzrius]

I agree with U_K about how to make Orcus a real planar badass. That said, it'll never happen (not in this edition, anyway) so I'll try to focus on what could actually be given in a Demonomicon article.

FCI took care of a lot of my problems with Orcus - not in terms of the stats, which sucked, but in terms of the resources of his layer. For the first time that I can remember, Thanatos seemed like a vast place with myriad resources to draw on, both undead and demonic. FCI made Orcus's realm a fittingly impressive place for the Demon Prince of the Undead.

In terms of Orcus's stats, I agree that he needs to be very nearly high enough to challenge Demogorgon at the very least (CR 31, like you said James).

Beyond that, though, he needs some archetypal unique special powers. The BoVD incarnation of Orcus was tough, but nothing about it made me say "wow, this guy is the true master of undeath." Simply having spell-like abilities, spellcasting, and the ability to summon demons as well as undead isn't enough. Give Orcus incredible mastery over undead creatures, more than even an epic mortal could pull off (perhaps no upper limit on the amount of undead he can control). All of the other Demonomicon subjects have had several unique abilities; Orcus deserves no less. Also, as an aside, you might want him to have undead traits (e.g. healed by negative energy, etc).

Also, get rid of that line about how "no undead serve him willingly." That's ridiculous - as the Prince of the Undead, the unliving should flock to him as a matter of course.

Finally, make the Wand of Orcus into a true weapon to be feared. It's one of the most renowned and awesome artifacts in all of D&D, with legendary capabilities for killing creatures; so make it seem that way. Don't just give it magic weapon qualities and the ability to use some spells every round - an epic weapon could do that. Make it have death-dealing powers that'd scare any living creature. More than anything else, the Wand should be the reason that Demogorgon doesn't just try and rip Orcus apart personally.

That's how you can make Orcus not suck.

 

[Shroomy]

I don't like using CR to gauge actual power since CR is only a mechanical gauge of how much resources a party of four D&D characters of the appropriate level will exhaust in a one on four combat. It works pretty well in that regard, even if it does break down the higher the CR gets. However, CR usually does not take into account resources beyond the personal equipment and treasure that the monster would carry around at any given time. I think the control of an Abyssal plane (or even a portion of one like lowly Juibilex) gives you a measure of power that cannot be accounted for in the CR system.

 

[Erik Mona]

FCI took care of a lot of my problems with Orcus - not in terms of the stats, which sucked, but in terms of the resources of his layer. For the first time that I can remember, Thanatos seemed like a vast place with myriad resources to draw on, both undead and demonic. FCI made Orcus's realm a fittingly impressive place for the Demon Prince of the Undead.

Thanks!

--Erik

 

[James Jacobs]

Elminster and Drizzt have the advantage of only being in one campaign world. As a result, it's easy to set their power level. The demon lords are, in theory, in all D&D campaign worlds (Demogorgon's even appeared in Dragonlance!). And not all campaign worlds have the same power level. A CR 20 monster is a world ender in a lower level campaign (such as Eberron), but a drop in the bucket in a higher level one (such as Forgotten Realms). I suppose the best case scenario would be to stat up multiple versions of all the demon lords for the different campaign settings. A CR 23 Demogorgon for Eberron, a CR 32 one for Greyhawk, and a CR 66 one for Forgotten Realms. But then, what about Mystara? Or Planescape? Or Dragonlance? Or Ptolus? Or the infinite number of equally-valid homebrew campaigns?

No; better to stat them up as baselines (as seen in Fiendish Codex 1); call them aspects or avatars or whatever. It's much easier to power a monster up than lower it down in D&D, and the Demonomicon articles are my way of giving examples how I would power them up to CR 24–30.

I didn't idly pick these numbers. They assume that the tougest standard demon in the Abyss is the CR 20 balor. Are there tougher non-demon lord demons? Sure, but they're unique creatures, advanced demons, or demons with class levels. The argument that since the Monster Manual says balors can advance up to 60 HD and therefore all demon lords need to be tough enough to beat up a legion of 60 HD balors is ridiculous on two counts. First, if there ARE any 60 HD balors, there's probably only one of them. And he's probably a demon lord himself. Second, scaling in D&D is infinite. If there's a 60 HD balor, then why can't there be a 20th level fighter 60 HD balor? You have to pick a ceiling, and the CR 20 balor is mine. A CR 32 Demogorgon won't have a problem handling all those pesky CR 20 balors, and the relatively small number of tougher balors in the Abyss aren't going to work together anyway.

And Shroomy's absolutely right. CR is, by and large, an arbitrary number that isn't the result of a mathmatecal formula. It can't be. A better way to judge a monster's power is to look at several actual touchstones that actually affect gameplay, such as AC, HD, saving throws, special ability DCs, and average damage. A CR 32 monster with an AC of 50 is pretty much just as tough to a 20th level party as a CR 100 monster with an AC of 500. You're only going to hit 5% of the time in either case.

 

[Razz]

Krust,

Not everyone believes that everything should be firmly statted out, catagorized and defined in some absolute hierarchy of power. Not everything does, or even should, operate on the same scale as everything else, nor should they all necessarily be judged by the same criteria. A CR 8000 Lynkhab versus a CR 7548 Yeenoghu or even a rather than a CR5000 quark-matter skinned fiendish aboleth from layer 3856 of the Abyss would be a nightmare of chapters worth of statblocks, and at the same time it limits such beings to only what the numbers provide; gone is the mystery, gone is the atmosphere, and gone is the idea that two abyssal lords are creatures of malevolent chaos because you know right there in chapter 5 and 6 are their stat blocks and everything that they could ever do.

That's antithetical to the play style that some of us have.

Setting a true and absolute statblock for planar powers, gods, etc is on some level IMO a misguided exercise in futility that ultimately diminshes the beings you're trying to define, or overly define as the case might be. The notion from FC:I and FC:II of putting out a CR20-30 avatar/aspect of an abyssal lord or similar being, something that has a realistic chance of being used in a majority of games, seems to me to be a good solution because it leaves the upper boundary of that archfiend's power an open question that individual DM's can then choose to define as they see fit within their campaigns, and at the same time that solution doesn't wreck the setting by trying to place a CR21 archfiend over an infinity of CR20 etc minions. We can have our cake and eat it too.

While I agree with what you've stated, this whole affair really is right on both sides of the spectrum. I certainly wish WotC had the resources to do an "Epic Line" and a "Non-Epic Line" but that'll never happen. It would make everyone truly satisfied, however.

Personally I am one of those people that like pure mechanics of a game given to me by professionals. I despise making my own because it takes up too much time, headache, and costs too much sleep. Besides, my judgement of how a CR 60 Orcus should be would be way off a team of D&D professionals would've pegged him at. If a certain artifact caused some major planar catastrophe and it still exists, I really would like the stats to it so I can use it in my games. The same would go for creatures, spells, and omnipotent entities.

I am not too keen on the "keeping the mystery" fad. That was the only aspect of the Planescape setting that drove me nuts. Every paragraph seemed to end with "here are some rumors, but who really knows for sure?" As a DM, I believe I should know. Sure, they were giving DMs opportunities to be creative, I understand, but it would be nice if some of those "mysteries" were truly spelled out for those DMs that don't have time or skill to make the game mechanics to do those things.

I think if WotC made Epic material more core, this wouldn't be such a debate here. Actually, it is in the DMG and even the SRD...but WotC seems to have forgotten all about the Epic rules. They're hurting themselves considerably by forgetting that. So many avenues and parts of the game they could be exploring both on a fluff and crunch level, but they're limiting themselves to a 20-level game.