Previews for September and Beyond

[Dannager]

First, the summoned gold dragons are relatively low-powered because Bahamut is a leader with the ability to give two targets +10 to attacks, damage and skill checks as a standard action - with no duration attached (note: it doesn't specify allies; he can grant himself this bonus).

Second, is this the first example of a monster above level 35? I know some people have posited that 35 is the "official limit" of levels in D&D, but that's clearly not the case.

Third, how many healing surges do level 31+ monsters get? Are they still considered epic-tier (and thus receive 3)? Or do they belong to their own tier that grants them 4 surges per day? Bahamut can heal two targets as a minor action, at-will, which means he can heal 1308 damage with 3 surges or 1744 damage with 4 surges. Serious pity to the fool who messes with Bahamut.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That's pretty much by-the-book AC for a level 36 solo soldier. Any party who wants to take on Bahamut had better include a high-Intelligence warlord with lead the attack, preferably an eladrin tactical warlord Spiral Tactician to give the extra boost to attack rolls with action points. And a high-Charisma cleric with plague of doom to lower his defenses for a round (and the Demigod epic destiny so that he can keep doing it - eventually). Assuming ability score bonuses of +8, that's a 17-point swing in the PCs' attack chances (a 25-point swing with an action point).

I think they better include a lot of powers that don't target AC.

But then, it's a fracking level 36 Solo. The combat is probably next to impossible to win without some very good luck, preperation and tactics.

 

[Cadfan]

Surprisingly, I'm a bit with Derren on this one. They should have made the canaries full fledged dragons.

I don't think you're supposed to actually fight this guy. I think this stat block is fan service. You know, like a technical readout of the engineering details of the Starship Enterprise. You're not going to build one, but its fun to read. Well, you're not going to fight Bahamut, but its fun to read about. And why aren't you going to fight Bahamut? Because they put him at level 36, made him a solo, and then made him a soldier. And the game only goes up to level 30. His numerical defenses alone make him almost unkillable, before you even consider his special abilities.

And since this is fan service, why not give him seven full fledged golden dragons? What would it hurt?

 

[Klaus]

Still "interesting" that Bahamut's bodyguard and his general are among the weakest dragon in existence....

When accompanied by Bahamut, yes (even though it is capable of hitting 30th-level demigods). In this scenario, they're merely extensions of Bahamut's power.

When met alone, they have the stats of Gold Dragons, as needed.

 

[Derren]

From the stat block, it seems that the canaries are canaries that can be changed into gold dragons instead of gold dragons that have disguised themselves as canaries. If Bahamut travels with his seven gold wyrms, I guess he becomes the Old Man with Seven Canaries and Seven Other Canaries.

That would make sense as the "summoned" gold dragons don't even have a breath weapon, but from the description of the Servants its pretty clear that those cannaries are polymorphed gold dragons.

First, the summoned gold dragons are relatively low-powered because Bahamut is a leader with the ability to give two targets +10 to attacks, damage and skill checks as a standard action - with no duration attached (note: it doesn't specify allies; he can grant himself this bonus).

That shouldn't matter. A creature shouldn't suddenly get weaker just because someone else in the encounter can buff it back to full strength.

Surprisingly, I'm a bit with Derren on this one. They should have made the canaries full fledged dragons.

I don't think you're supposed to actually fight this guy. I think this stat block is fan service. You know, like a technical readout of the engineering details of the Starship Enterprise. You're not going to build one, but its fun to read. Well, you're not going to fight Bahamut, but its fun to read about. And why aren't you going to fight Bahamut? Because they put him at level 36, made him a solo, and then made him a soldier. And the game only goes up to level 30. His numerical defenses alone make him almost unkillable, before you even consider his special abilities.

And since this is fan service, why not give him seven full fledged golden dragons? What would it hurt?

Imo they should not have included the gold dragons in his statblock at all. Instead they should only mention in his fluff text that most of the time he travels with 7 gold dragons which take the form of cannaries.

When accompanied by Bahamut, yes (even though it is capable of hitting 30th-level demigods). In this scenario, they're merely extensions of Bahamut's power.

When met alone, they have the stats of Gold Dragons, as needed.

Why would gold dragons get weaker in presence of their creator?

 

[The_Fan]

Considering that he's a leader, odds are you won't be meeting him alone either. Fortunately, there's little out there to pair him up with. For the moment. We'll see what Draconomicon 2 adds that Bahamut may want to pal around with.

 

[Shazman]

That would make sense as the "summoned" gold dragons don't even have a breath weapon, but from the description of the Servants its pretty clear that those cannaries are polymorphed gold dragons.



That shouldn't matter. A creature shouldn't suddenly get weaker just because someone else in the encounter can buff it back to full strength.



Imo they should not have included the gold dragons in his statblock at all. Instead they should only mention in his fluff text that most of the time he travels with 7 gold dragons which take the form of cannaries.



Why would gold dragons get weaker in presence of their creator?

The same reason a warlord can heal with a pep talk, PC's regenerate like trolls, and minions have 1 hit point. Pure metagame balance, at the expense of any semblance of reality or versimilitude.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

Why would gold dragons get weaker in presence of their creator?

I would say it's for the same reason that some orcs are minions and others are elites.

 

[Obryn]

Why would gold dragons get weaker in presence of their creator?

Derren, we've been around the block many, many times on this. It's the same reason an Ogre might be an Elite to a low-level character, a standard monster at mid-levels, and a minion with 1 hp at high levels.

The ogre is not actually getting weaker. Neither are the gold dragons. Their combat statistics - which are not actual descriptions of them, just descriptions of how they interact with PCs during combat - change based on the situation. In this case, their combat interaction in some insane fight vs. Bahamut makes it sensible for them to have these specific game stats. Out of that combat, they have whatever stats might be appropriate - most likely hugely powerful gold dragons.

Stats in 4e don't tell you anything other than how the monster performs in combats where the PCs are involved. I know you don't like this. You don't have to; nobody is making you like it. But every time this comes up, you put up exactly the same objections.

-O

 

[Njall]

The same reason a warlord can heal with a pep talk, PC's regenerate like trolls, and minions have 1 hit point. Pure metagame balance, at the expense of any semblance of reality or versimilitude.

Yeah! And in a game, D&D, where the PCs historically can heal any wound, no matter how crippling, just by sleeping enough! How dare they!?