Price/Packaging Info for PFB: Rise of the Runelords Miniatures

"Merric's Law of Miniatures: Non-Random Packaging, Cheap Prices, and a Large Range of Figures: Choose two."

Merric happens to be right. The selection in Dungeon Command is 12 minis for $39.99. I am not aware of more than one "set" -- although they may be making two for release. That's a price per mini which is actually higher that PFB (mind you, DC will have a box, rules and tiles too -- so call it ~ the same)-- and a range of figures which is less than 1/5th the size (or less than 2/5ths if there are two boxes sets released.)

Either way, Merric's law holds.

The cost of manufacturing and oil has gone up, demand has gone down -- and there is a REASON why WotC stopped making random minis after all. The price got too high for them and what they perceived to be their natural market for D&D minis.

Nevertheless, random blind boxing is a necessity to support a larger range of minis required by an RPG like Pathfinder; the costs paid for some cheaper minis offset the costs of others which are more expensive (sometimes, much more expensive) to manufacture than others.

If you get a whole factory sealed case, you get a whole set. That mitigates the bite of the randomness, albeit at a price.

That doesnt really address my concern though. Im not complaining about the price as per my post - Im complaining about the blind buy factor combined with the price. WotC's Dungeon Command line is certainly pricey ($39.99 per set of 12, of which there will be 2 sets on release - Sting of Lolth and Heart of Cormyr) but I know what Im getting. At that price I want to know what Im getting. Another unusual aspect is that since this is based on an Adventure Path, I would want to know what I was getting as I bought them so when my players ran into these monsters and NPC's I would have the right ones. Now thats just a general criticism on randomized minis in general, but for a set that is completely based on an Adventure Path that is about to get the "Anniversary Edition" treatment, I would have liked to have seen a different approach in release. However I do understand that not everyone buying the minis is doing so for the purpose of running RotRL, and that they have to serve the needs of the average customers as well. I just think that the price for these minis at a blind buy with randomization is just not a good combination (at least for me). Also, what 2 parts from Merric's law did they choose? They aren't non-random, and they aren't cheap. The only one I see is the large range of figures.

Now, that's not to say that I dont think the Paizo minis arent worth the $$ overall, no no. I take isue with how it is packaged. With Paizo's first mini set, I was irritated by opening up a new mini box to pop out my umpteen millionth goblin which I have just spent anywhere from $3 to $5 CAN on (their goblins are great though). With a random set I want at least 8 or more minis so at least Im more likely to get something I want and dont have a ton of refuse left over. With this new set of minis they are definetly taking a step in the right direction in terms of upping the number of minis in the standard booster, but still the randomness and relatively small amount of minis in a standard booster is a turn off for me. I feel like they still need to hit that sweet spot of cost/assortment for my purchase. WotC handeled this aspect well with their boosters of old. I understand the reason that the PFB minis are more expensive, but if I am paying more for a pack of minis that are randomized, it'd be nice knowing that Im more likely to get something I want out of it. And buying one of those multi hundred dollar cases is not an ideal alternative. I do appreciate what Paizo is doing in the mini market, but Im going to likely stick to just buying individuals for the time being.

Please keep in mind, I am only expressing my personal opinion on the matter of minis, and I know Im probobly in the minority. I love PF, and think Paizo make some of the best RPG material out there. Im just personally not too keen on how the minis have gone thus far.
 

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That doesnt really address my concern though. Im not complaining about the price as per my post - Im complaining about the blind buy factor combined with the price...
<acronym title="Wizards of the Coast">
WotC</acronym> handled this aspect well with their boosters of old.

It absolutely addresses your concern -- in that it explains why what you want does not work.

Try reading this again: "Merric's Law of Miniatures: Non-Random Packaging, Cheap Prices, and a Large Range of Figures: Choose two." These are mutually exclusive choices, and you CANNOT choose all three.

Are they Cheap? - WotC's Older Pricing Model Ca. 2002-2007

These miniatures are still cheap, but they aren't as cheap as they used to be 5-7 years ago at the height of D&D minis. There are good reasons for that:

1 - skyrocketing increase in the cost of oil = Higher cost;
2 - Appreciating value of Chinese Yuan and depreciating US Dollar = Higher cost;
3 - Divided market, oversaturation = Reduced demand = lower economies of scale = Higher cost.

So yes, they are cheap as they can get em at the quality people want. The cost of oil - a major input in plastic miniatures, has sky-rocketed. That increases shipping costs and manufacturing costs at every step. The Chinese Yuan has gone up in value relative to other currencies and the US Dollar has gone dramatically down. Moreover, demand is not what it was, either. There are people who have thousands of pre-painted plastic minis and they aren't as interested as they once were in buying more of them. So yes, they ARE cheap -- just not as cheap as you might prefer.

For a time, WotC attempted to keep the price down from 2007 onwards, but they had to make sacrifices in order to do so. The change in art direction from 3rd to 4th ed made some customers unhappy with the 4E figures. Oversaturation of the marketplace had resulted in many core customers buying hundreds of minis over the years -- with some hardcore customers having acquired thousands of minis over five or six years of the D&D mini line.

So WotC reduced the cost by reducing the quality of figures. Sculpt quality went down, paint job quality went markedly down, too. WotC reduced the number of minis per box. WotC reduced the number of minis in the set range, too. All of this was an attempt to keep the price point of the minis down so that younger customers could buy in. Ultimately, the depreciating dollar and the skyrocketing cost of oil persuaded WotC to exit the random mini line completely and in early 2011, WotC announced they were ending the product line.

The Problem of Random Packaging

Your complaint is the random packaging. If you want non-random, you now have a choice to make: do you want a large range of figures at a VERY expensive price point, or do you want cheaper minis with a smaller range of figures? These are mutually exclusive choices and you only get to choose one more as you have already selected "non-random packaging" as one of your preferences.

Dungeon Command chooses to go for a cheaper price point and a smaller range of figures. Even then, by bundling 12 known minis per box, Dungeon Command makes you buy figures you don't want in order to obtain figures that you DO want. Paizo/Wizkids can't do that and still create a large enough range of minis for the Adventure Path's purpose (and for gamers' larger gaming needs). In order to get a large range of figures and a cheaper price, they need to randomize the packaging in the Pathfinder Battles line.

If Dungeon Command released 5 different sets of 12 unique minis per box all at once (a range of 60 figures) in non-blind packaging, for $49.99-$54.99 a box - would that be a product you would want to buy? Would there be enough other people out there who would want to buy them as well in large enough numbers in order for it to make sense to manufacture? $250.00-$275.00 for 60 minis? I doubt it. And even if there were enough to make the risk worth it, would there be MORE people who want that vs. those who would buy them when randomly packaged? No way.

Your preference also ignores the very real problem of inventory control which lies at the heart of the problem with non-random pre-painted minis. How do you determine how much of each to manufacture and how do you know which ones people will want more? What happens when you want to continue the mini line in 4-6 months' time with another release? Does the retailer now stock 5 MORE #SKUs? How long can that go on before it comes crashing down and the retailer says "no more" -- I have no more shelf space.

The Problem of Inventory Control

That's how minis in one or two blind boxes makes that problem go away. No box is preferred more than any other and shelf space is not overcrowded with different products. Inventory control is VASTLY easier for the retailer, too. As a miniatures product line goes along and you end up having 4 of these sets in print at once (that's generally what happened with WotC's mini line at its height) then WotC's random packaging made for only FOUR #SKUS and a 12"-15" of shelf space to carry the entire line. Your preferred choice would result in a retailer tracking 20 #SKUS consuming ~20 feet of shelf space.

I'd also point out that even if there were enough people who want to buy 5 different boxes of a dozen known minis -- that's a fool's preference. Buying ONE box of minis (that is what a case is, after all) for about $280.00 and getting 128 minis which guarantees AT LEAST the same 60 you bought for $275, plus another 68 minis in known proportions is a far better deal for the gamer.

That's the approach that Pathfinder Battles has taken for those who want the whole set in numbers which are almost entirely predictable and which gives you a complete set of 60 -- with a double of each of the commons and most of the uncommons and a few of the rares as well.
 
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It absolutely addresses your concern -- in that it explains why what you want does not work.

Try reading this again: "Merric's Law of Miniatures: Non-Random Packaging, Cheap Prices, and a Large Range of Figures: Choose two." These are mutually exclusive choices, and you CANNOT choose all three.

And they are cheap as they can get em at the quality people want. The cost of oil - a major input in plastic miniatures, has sky-rocketed. That increases shipping costs and manufacturing costs at every step. The Chinese Yuan has gone up in value relative to other currencies and the US Dollar has gone dramatically down. Moreover, demand is not what it was, either. There are people who have thousands of pre-painted plastic minis and they aren't as interested as they once were in buying more of them. So yes, they ARE cheap -- just not as cheap as you might prefer.

Your complaint is the random packaging. If you want non-random, you now have a choice to make: do you want a large range of figures at a VERY expensive price point, or do you want cheaper minis with a smaller range of figures? These are mutually exclusive choices and you only get to choose one more as you have already selected "non-random packaging" as one of your preferences.

Dungeon Command chooses to go for a cheaper price point and a smaller range of figures. Even then, by bundling 12 known minis per box, Dungeon Command makes you buy figures you don't want in order to obtain figures that you DO want. Paizo/Wizkids can't do that and still create a large enough range of minis for the Adventure Path's purpose (and for gamers' larger gaming needs). In order to get a large range of figures and a cheaper price, they need to randomize the packaging in the Pathfinder Battles line.

If Dungeon Command released 5 different sets of 12 unique minis per box all at once (a range of 60 figures) in non-blind packaging, for $49.99-$54.99 a box - would that be a product you would want to buy? Would there be enough other people out there who would want to buy them as well in large enough numbers in order for it to make sense to manufacture? $250.00-$275.00 for 60 minis? I doubt it. And even if there were enough to make the risk worth it, would there be MORE people who want that vs. those who would buy them when randomly packaged? No way.

Your preference also ignores the very real problem of inventory control which lies at the heart of the problem with non-random pre-painted minis. How do you determine how much of each to manufacture and how do you know which ones people will want more? What happens when you want to continue the mini line in 4-6 months' time with another release? Does the retailer now stock 5 MORE #SKUs? How long can that go on before it comes crashing down and the retailer says "no more" -- I have no more shelf space.

That's how minis in one or two blind boxes makes that problem go away. No box is preferred more than any other and shelf space is not overcrowded with different products. Inventory control is VASTLY easier for the retailer, too. As a miniatures product line goes along and you end up having 4 of these sets in print at once (that's generally what happened with WotC's mini line at its height) then WotC's random packaging made for only FOUR #SKUS and a 12"-15" of shelf space to carry the entire line. Your preferred choice would result in a retailer tracking 20 #SKUS consuming ~20 feet of shelf space.

I'd also point out that even if there were enough people who want to buy 5 different boxes of a dozen known minis -- that's a fool's preference. Buying ONE box of minis (that is what a case is, after all) for about $280.00 and getting 128 minis which guarantees AT LEAST the same 60 you bought for $275, plus another 68 minis in known proportions is a far better deal for the gamer.

That's the approach that Pathfinder Battles has taken for those who want the whole set in numbers which are almost entirely predictable and which gives you a complete set of 60 -- with a double of each of the commons and most of the uncommons and a few of the rares as well.

No - it does not address my concern. Paizo has chosen a model that I *personally* don't care for no matter how you spin it. I will buy the DC sets that I like because I know what I'm getting. I will stick to buying Paizo minis individually so I know what I'm getting as well. A several hundred dollar purchase at once for case is not an attractive option to me. The DC sets are easier to digest as the cost is spread out over time.

Also, the price is still too high for this method. Despite the costs to create these things, the end result is still a high price. This is like the argument in the video game industry that given inflation over the years, video games are cheaper than they have ever been. That doesn't change the fact that they are still expensive in general. However, as per my posts, it's the method of delivery that kills it for me. The price I can swallow, but not like this.

Again I want to reiterate that this is just my personal preference. I don't mean to be argumentative, and I'm not claiming to know what is best for the industry or Paizo. I understand your arguments, its just a situation that I don't care for personally, but it's better than what they did before.

I really like your work for the PF community, I don't mean any offense. I am just stating my opinion, not suggesting that my thoughts on this are the better way for everyone. We will just have to agree to disagree. :)
 

No - it does not address my concern.

We will just have to agree to disagree. :)

We are not disagreeing about anything. Your preference is your preference. How can anyone be wrong in what they like or prefer?

The question in these matters isn't about what somebody likes or prefers; it's about what business model is viable over the long haul.

I don't disparage or disagree with your preferences. I'm pointing out the reasons why the price has gone up and why what you prefer isn't a viable business model to support an RPG with a large range of pre-painted plastic figures.
 

I just hope the sticker shock isn't bad enough that the set sells poorly. I'll be buying them, but I wonder how many will be turned off by the pricing.

I'm glad prepainted minis are being made, but at these prices, well, I hope they stay viable for Wizkids.
 

Actually if you look at it the price of a box of minis is about the same as the packs at the end of DDM so that shouldn't make much difference. The big difference is that what WotC called a case, and what WhizKids call a case, are very different (a case of DDM was 12 boxes, where as a case of PF Battles is 32 boxes).
 

  • Preorder Case Bundle: $519.98
  • Preorder Standard Case: $399.99
  • Preorder Huge Case: $119.99
Wow. $520 for a subscriber? That's a price that is out of reach of most gamers I know. And while I know gamers that can afford that, they tend to reserve such purchases for something really rare and special - a one-of-a-kind limited offering by an RPG publisher, signed art, etc.

The price of $120 for 6 huge minis is especially jarring to me. That's what I would expect for pretty incredible minis. When I look at the Lamia... that's the kind of huge mini I would have been disappointed to get in a DDM set. And I'm only looking for 4? Buying direct from Paizo seems to be charity, rather than a benefit.

Even for the non-huge at $400, that's still $3.12 a mini. Not terrible, but we have to consider that the market has tons of minis and this set size is small (64). We can find really nice minis at a lower price. If we already own minis we have to consider how many more goblins, ogres, bugbears, bears and so on we really need. And, product strategy-wise, this is just the next set. There will theoretically be another one after that! Are a lot of gamers ready to fork over $400 again in a few months?

The pricing also seems strange in that Paizo has done so well encouraging subscriptions and on-site purchases. They set up an immediate direct sale of minis, but they haven't been able to set the secondary market prices. You still have to choose between paying more at Paizo and getting discounts elsewhere... which hurts their margins. It's a shame they can't be the distributor at a low price, because I like rewarding a company directly when possible.

the only question concerning the product line's future success will depend upon the price, because the quality of the sculpts and paint-jobs are generally outstanding and mostly a cut above WotC's offerings in the DDM line even at its best.
This is subjective. I've heard others voice what I feel: I'm not a fan at all of WizKids color tones and while I like many of the Paizo sculpts, I don't find them consistently superior nor do I favor their artistic style. We can compare the ettin in the first set to any number of DDM ettins and see some that have better painting (more colors, better wet and dry brushing effects, superior sculpts). That huge Lamia is cool, but I don't see it as superior quality to Yuan-Ti Anathema (can find online for $7) or for a humanoid example the more recent Fomorian Painbringer ($6 online). Same for the Dire Bear in the PF set compared to other bear DDM options. It is a good bear, but even if I didn't own three bears, I'm not sure enough gamers would prefer this one... especially if they are buying on the secondary market ($2.20-3.45 for DDM Dire Bears).

Now, sure, some people will prefer the Paizo look. But of those people, some already own two or more dire bears (and so on and so forth). It is too easy for this to become a secondary market situation, where gamers are picking and choosing what they want. Isn't that what killed DDM, on top of the economy of oil? And throw in the people that don't like the Paizo look for goblins or the WizKid paint tones, and you further divide the audience.

I really wanted to buy these sets. I had the money set aside for them, but the paint scheme turned me off, as did the artistic style and many of the sculpts. These were far bigger issues than price for me... and the price is high. I took my saved-up money and just went to the secondary market and purchased some DDMs I was missing. I got more for my money (exactly the minis I wanted, quality and style I favor) and I'm closer to a complete DDM set. I could still see myself buying a Paizo case if the painting and sculpting improved, and I think some of the minis are moving to better paint styles (Treachery Demon; the Rune Giant is insanely cool). That the quality improvements are coming with price hikes makes me think this isn't likely to continue improving.

The pictures from PAX make the repaints for Dungeon Command look pretty good. I already like the sculpts, and while I prefer completely new sculpts, the combination with tiles and a minis game that has initially positive reviews is a good reason to look at those. And I still have cool DDM minis I want to buy.
 
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This is subjective. I've heard others voice what I feel: I'm not a fan at all of WizKids color tones and while I like many of the Paizo sculpts, I don't find them consistently superior nor do I favor their artistic style.

...

I really wanted to buy these sets. I had the money set aside for them, but the paint scheme turned me off, as did the artistic style and many of the sculpts. These were far bigger issues than price for me... and the price is high. I took my saved-up money and just went to the secondary market and purchased some DDMs I was missing. I got more for my money

...

The pictures from PAX make the repaints for Dungeon Command look pretty good. I already like the sculpts, and while I prefer completely new sculpts, the combination with tiles and a minis game that has initially positive reviews is a good reason to look at those. And I still have cool DDM minis I want to buy.


I Agree with what you've posted here. While technically the PFB minis have quality paint jobs in terms of detail, I find a number of them not to my tastes artistically. I find they have a very cartoon-ish quality and are a little awkward sometimes. Although I really like the PF goblin personally, I dont deny the Cartoon-like look of some of the other minis.

Another issue I have had with the initial PFB minis is build quality - I dont know if it is just me or not, but Ive had a number of minis outright break on me. The WotC minis are able to take more punishment I find. However, that could just be blind luck on my part (or lack thereof).

Also, you bring up a good point in regards to the DDM saturation - I think Dungeon Command is a good soloution to that issue. Where many gamers already have extensive mini collections from previous iterations of the DDM line, DC is going to provide specialized sets that you know what you are getting. They fit in with the the style of pre-existing D&D minis, without having to provide gamers with a whole new line of minis that you have to collect via randomized boosters. As well, these sets will likely just keep cycling over time - (*speculation alert*) so as opposed to trying to fill an old market that isnt what it used to be, by pumping in hundreds of new minis, you'll have a more limited and focussed product line that supplements an already large secondary market. Also, these minis serve more than just the RPG line, you also get a new skirmish game right in the box, and as they have also indicated, the minis also act as additional monsters for the Adventure System board games like Castle Ravenloft, Wrath of Ashardalon and Legend of Drizzt. There is much more value in that box, expecially if you own any of those board games. Plus, as mentioned already the new minis have improved paint jobs.

Hmmm, after reading the last paragraph back again, it sounds like I am just advertising for the Dungeon Command Minis. I swear I didnt mean to sound like that! I hope there can be a viable market for both lines to do well, as Id certainly like to see both lines succeed by all means. The PFB minis do have some really nice scuplts too, despite my personal opinion, and Im sure there are lots out there that far prefer the style they have gone with.

In the end though, both these products are pricey. Say what you want about Merrics law, and the reasoning for the higher cost and how its really cheap all things considered. At the end of the day what it comes down to is what is in the consumers wallet, or more importantly, what isnt. No matter how you slice it, this is still expensive. With the current economic woes today, I dont imagine the average gamer will approach a box of DC minis or PFB minis and think they are getting a great deal off the shelf because the cost of oil has gone up. What matters at a customers level is what that number on the label says, relative to whats inside that packaging. What most will see is a higher price tag on something that used to cost a lot less.
 

That doesnt really address my concern though. Im not complaining about the price as per my post - Im complaining about the blind buy factor combined with the price. WotC's Dungeon Command line is certainly pricey ($39.99 per set of 12, of which there will be 2 sets on release - Sting of Lolth and Heart of Cormyr) but I know what Im getting. At that price I want to know what Im getting. Another unusual aspect is that since this is based on an Adventure Path, I would want to know what I was getting as I bought them so when my players ran into these monsters and NPC's I would have the right ones. Now thats just a general criticism on randomized minis in general, but for a set that is completely based on an Adventure Path that is about to get the "Anniversary Edition" treatment, I would have liked to have seen a different approach in release. However I do understand that not everyone buying the minis is doing so for the purpose of running RotRL, and that they have to serve the needs of the average customers as well. I just think that the price for these minis at a blind buy with randomization is just not a good combination (at least for me). Also, what 2 parts from Merric's law did they choose? They aren't non-random, and they aren't cheap. The only one I see is the large range of figures.

Now, that's not to say that I dont think the Paizo minis arent worth the $$ overall, no no. I take isue with how it is packaged. With Paizo's first mini set, I was irritated by opening up a new mini box to pop out my umpteen millionth goblin which I have just spent anywhere from $3 to $5 CAN on (their goblins are great though). With a random set I want at least 8 or more minis so at least Im more likely to get something I want and dont have a ton of refuse left over. With this new set of minis they are definetly taking a step in the right direction in terms of upping the number of minis in the standard booster, but still the randomness and relatively small amount of minis in a standard booster is a turn off for me. I feel like they still need to hit that sweet spot of cost/assortment for my purchase. WotC handeled this aspect well with their boosters of old. I understand the reason that the PFB minis are more expensive, but if I am paying more for a pack of minis that are randomized, it'd be nice knowing that Im more likely to get something I want out of it. And buying one of those multi hundred dollar cases is not an ideal alternative. I do appreciate what Paizo is doing in the mini market, but Im going to likely stick to just buying individuals for the time being.

Please keep in mind, I am only expressing my personal opinion on the matter of minis, and I know Im probobly in the minority. I love PF, and think Paizo make some of the best RPG material out there. Im just personally not too keen on how the minis have gone thus far.




Isn't Dungeon Command a board game?

And the miniatures are all old D&D minis sculpts.

Nothing I already don't have.

If thats the case, its easy to sell them in board game format because they already paid for the plastic injection molds back when the minis were sold in random format.

No overhead costs involved in making new molds.

With all that in mind, I can easily say I am not going to buy D&D minis if they keep using molds from older minis.




Pathfinder minis Here I come!!!
 
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