Pricing Itimes with Initiative Bonus

[Cheiromancer]

So... Cheiromancer, are you going to introduce the Scabbard of the Battousai into your games anytime soon?

I have just moved, and I am currently between gaming groups. So the technical answer to your question is "No."

Game theory interests me, though, and I get a lot of vicarious enjoyment talking about things on these boards.

 

[Nifft]

Excuse me for having something to do other than read a massive thread Besides, I was replying specifically to the creator of the thread, not you.

30 posts is "massive"?

-- N

 

[Nifft]

I'm another vote for bonus squared times 2000. And I think it should be a ring. If both of these rules are followed, I'd let it go up to +10 without going epic.

If it doesn't have to be a ring (e.g. gets double priced and put on a scabbard or something) and is limited to +4 (like the feat), I'd let it be priced as bonus squared times 1000.

I'd still cap the pre-Epic bonus at +4 or so. There are enough situations where I'd feel inclined to use the item for smart Rogue-centric strike-teams.

Basically, anything that I could see a smart NPC using to kill the party in a way that the players would regard as "unfair", I ban for both sides.

+4 is helpful, but not game-breaking.

Sidebar: Why do I consider +10 game-breaking but not +4? Let's look at all the Initiative bonuses that can accrue:
+2 (cheap Dex in point buy)
+1-4 (Racial bonus... these are NPCs, monster races, etc.)
+4 (Feat)
+2-3 (Enhancement: cheap Dex spell, or expensive Dex item)

So, just in the Core rules, I have the potential to have a +9-13 Initiative modifier. I'd hate to be a PC facing something with a modifier over +20.

[edit] Settle down you two! No need for anyone to get snarky. [/edit]

Snarkyness encourages literacy. Literacy encourages posts worth reading. Some selfish git thinks his time is worth more than everyone else on the board, he gets my scorn. With luck, my scorn entertains some and encourages the selfish git to become a better board citizen.

-- N

 

[Cheiromancer]

I like the idea of a rogue strike-force. Come in, hit fast, and get out. It would obviously be helpful if they could determine when an encounter ended. This isn't addressed in the rules, is it? Is there anything along the lines of the 40-move rule in chess, e.g. like "after 1 minute with neither an attack role nor a saving throw (involving an opponent, not members of the party amonst themselves), new initiative must be rolled when opponents are again encountered."

And you may be right on the +4 limit. I'll have to think about it some more.

 

[Nifft]

One Rogue Strike Force in my campaign:

1/ Chloe, Rogue3/Duelist10 (homebrew)
2/ Ambroise, Wiz5/Rog3/Arc.Trickster6
3/ Karthik, Psychic Ninja 13 (homebrew)

They've got excellent mobility, good skills, and almost no staying power (very limited healing magic / psionics).

-- N

 

[Snowy]

*ignore* stoopid snowy pressed the wrong button.

 

[Snowy]

I can see it with three rogues
R
surprise round three rogues appear like so M R
R

With the one on the end using a wand of D-Door to get them in place
Two flanking rogues get their sneak attacks

1st round
two rogues get their full attack sneak attacks other rogue D-Doors them out.


do it with assassins to be even nastier. Only one problem not sure if D-Door allows this sort of placement. With the aforementioned +20 init the rogues will win initiative in virtually all cases unless against someone also wearing an item of +10 init. Without it the party at least has a better chance of stopping them gettign away or gettign their full attacks in.

 

[Vraister]

To help pricing the item:
There is a weapon ability in AEG which gives you +2 bonus to initiative and quickdraw for the weapon. You don't have to weild it to get the bonus. It is a +2 enchantment.

Vraister

 

[ARandomGod]

I like the idea of a rogue strike-force. Come in, hit fast, and get out. It would obviously be helpful if they could determine when an encounter ended. This isn't addressed in the rules, is it? Is there anything along the lines of the 40-move rule in chess, e.g. like "after 1 minute with neither an attack role nor a saving throw (involving an opponent, not members of the party amonst themselves), new initiative must be rolled when opponents are again encountered."

And you may be right on the +4 limit. I'll have to think about it some more.

I'd limit it to +4, and I'd put it on either a ring or bracers without a penalty to price either way. (Bracers are combat buffs, initiative is very key to combat).

+4 because there are so many other ways to get initiative. You can get a really, really healthy initiative bonus with even +4.

As for ending combat... you're right, there are no hard and fast rules. I think the "rule" is that either side can 'drop initiative' whenever they want, but if you drop it and they don't, they get in a free hit. ^_^

 

[Technik4]

I'd hate to be a PC facing something with a modifier over +20.

Are there many examples of a high initiative dictating the course of the fight? I mean, as someone said, a high initiative only lets you go 1st one time (or perhaps twice, with a surprise round). Additionally, you can refocus to go first in any given round.

The biggest advantage/abuse seems to be for rogues, for getting in all those sneak-before-they've-acted hits in. But certainly we can agree there are diminishing returns?

I mean isn't anything above +20 initiative excessive?

I am partly playing devil's advocate, because I read Jester's storyhour and have seen how high initiative can sometimes dictate a fight, at high levels. Of course, in most of those examples the baddie would have done some damage (which would be healed by Horbin the MFKG Holy) and died just as painfully fast.


I suggest:

Ring of Surprise
While wearing this ring you gain a +5 competence bonus to initiative. Additionally you may always act in a suprise round. However, if you would not normally be able to (by failing spot/listen checks), you must act last regardless of your initiative (you act normally after the suprise round).
[Strong Divination, Minor Artifact (~100,000 gp)

for high level games. 100,000 gold isn't chump change, but neither is guaranteeing youll never be 'surprised'. I used the bonus squared x 2,000 and assigned the 'never-suprised' ability 25,000 cost (doubled for being a secondary power on a ring).

Bandit Bandanna
Wearing this bandanna confers a +1-4 competence bonus to initiative. This bonus is lost if you are denied your dexterity bonus (except during the first round of an encounter).
Moderate Transmutation, Fox's Cunning; Market Price: +1 (1,000 gp), +2 (4,000 gp), +3 (9,000 gp), +4 (16,000 gp).

would be better for lower level games.