Prisoners

As far as I can remember, every published adventure I played back in D&D boxed set and AD&D times was in the mode of “Orcs are EVIL”.

No, they've had evil orcs. That's different to saying every orc is evil and incapable of any other alignment. D&D products have consistently presented orc families, orc children, societies etc, They've not been presented as some sort of demon, literally unable to process any non-malefic action.

Come on, not even drow were presented like that.
 

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Wasteland Knight

Adventurer
No, they've had evil orcs. That's different to saying every orc is evil and incapable of any other alignment. D&D products have consistently presented orc families, orc children, societies etc, They've not been presented as some sort of demon, literally unable to process any non-malefic action.

Come on, not even drow were presented like that.

I’m telling you my experience at thegaming table. Since you weren’t there, I don’t think you get to tell me what my experience was.
 

Eric V

Hero
In some game worlds, Orcs are incapable of deciding to be good; without magic altering their mind, they just can't.

In such worlds, the lack of true freedom of will makes killing them off a bit more justified.
Sure, but I've never heard of a game where that's the actual reality...because if that were true, the forces of "good" would spend their time engaging in brutal campaigns of genocide against most of the monster manual, to the point of hunting down and killing infants of the species. Based on the premise provided, it's the only thing that would make sense.
 



Wasteland Knight

Adventurer
Didn't the early modules for AD&D give xp for killing the women and children? I think that was what concerned my parents about the game.

I distinctly remember games where they provided stats for “females and children”,sometimes by referring to another monster like “treat Orc children as Goblins” or similar.

so at least in some games I was a part of, errant (or fir done players well placed) Fireballs/Cloudkills could rack up additional XP.
 

Wasteland Knight

Adventurer
Sure, but I've never heard of a game where that's the actual reality...because if that were true, the forces of "good" would spend their time engaging in brutal campaigns of genocide against most of the monster manual, to the point of hunting down and killing infants of the species. Based on the premise provided, it's the only thing that would make sense.

Almost nothing about the de facto D&D-esque campaign worlds make much sense. Not just in regards to any analogs of actual history, but the game worlds aren’t even internally consistent with their own “facts”.

the reason the forces of “Good” haven’t gotten organized to wipe out the Evil of the world is due to one reason - if they did, our intrepid party of adventurers would no longerhacevrncoubtets to fight and would be forced to live boring but safe lives in the lands of peace.
 
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I've always tended to play D&D in rationalised fantasy worlds. In most of those, orcs tend to have a fairly brutal culture, but are not intrinsically evil. I had a good example of this recently in a low-level AD&D campaign. The party, who were second or third level, were ambushed on the road by what turned out to be a mixed group of human bandits and orc mercenaries. They weren't well organised, and we rapidly got the better of them.

One orc, who had been heard complaining about the leadership before his bow broke, and the orc next to him was knocked down, decided to surrender when I said we were working for the local human kingdom's army. I just said that as psychological warfare, but it paid off. As a mercenary, he wasn't prepared to give information until we hired him, but since then he's given good and loyal service, and provided a lot of valuable information. It probably helps that we don't discriminate against him when it comes to magical healing. Indeed, we take some care to keep him alive, since he has fewer HP than most of the party, but is a good bowman.
 

JohnSnow

Hero
I distinctly remember games where they provided stats for “females and children”,sometimes by referring to another monster like “treat Orc children as Goblins” or similar.

so at least in some games I was a part of, errant (or fir done players well placed) Fireballs/Cloudkills could rack up additional XP.
Yes. That was done in later editions, 3e, I think.

But way back in "Keep on the Borderlands," Gygax decided to make orcs, goblins, kobolds and all the rest breed just like any normal race, so he put in orc female and whelp "noncombatants," thus confronting the earliest D&D players with the problem. Of course, Gary didn't realize it was a problem, and assumed that given a medieval justice mindset, it would be fine to just kill them all. And that somehow, this isn't inconsistent with the concept of metaphysical good. Ooo-kay. Sure. That's his viewpoint, but I disagree.

That's the tricky thing when it comes to playing in a world informed by history. Historically, raiding parties, and armies tended to view "the enemy" as combatants to be dispatched. Yes, that includes civilians. Look at all the historical examples of towns being looted, pillaged and worse by advancing armies. Knights and others had the right of High Justice, which meant they could punish people as they saw fit. Some of this is tied to the relative lack of prisons, so justice was often swift and violent (executions and mutilation were common punishments). People could do all of these things without pause and still think of themselves as "good," and yes, that should make our modern sensibilities wince.

We look back on those times from a modern perspective and admire the legendary Robin Hood, who opposed the Sheriff's excessive taxes and too-severe High Justice, and was outlawed for it. Does that mean we think that thievery is fine? No, but it means that to a modern mindset, maybe you shouldn't have your hand chopped off for poaching because you're starving. And it's pretty disingenuous to talk about "medieval justice" and morality and simply gloss over the legend of Robin Hood.

But how does that play out in a world where Good and Evil are actually cosmic forces? If the practical medieval combatant commits evil acts to maintain order, has he behaved in a way that the gods of Good will punish him? It's actually less problematic when you talk about Law & Chaos, because the terms are less loaded. Which makes me wonder if that is the reason Moorcock opted for the latter in his Elric saga. One of the biggest problems with alignment, is that the DM's personal sensibilities become the cosmic law of the universe.

Personally, I tend to take the attitude that "mercy is a hallmark of good" and "keeping your word is a hallmark of law," ergo if you're good and/or lawful, there are times you don't kill non-combatants. A lawful good character would not only not kill innocents (that's the good part), they wouldn't kill combatants who had surrendered (that's the lawful part). In my mind, it's just as evil to kill orc whelps as it is to summarily dispatch all the children when you finally bring down Evil Kingdom #6.

Ultimately, talk it out with your group. Figure out what level of moral quandary you want to have in your medieval fantasy (or other) game, and make sure that all parties are on the same page. Some games handle this pretty smoothly, with things like "Keeps his word," "Won't kill prisoners or the defenseless," or the like available as a game hindrance.
 

So I was reading the thread about the intimidation skill, and it got my pondering, how does your group handle prisoners?
In the occult WWII game, prisoners are a valuable source of information. We've sometimes mounted short missions just to catch one. The most interesting ones are a married couple of German secret agents whom we've had a series of interactions with:
  1. We first met them in Liverpool, when they, and us, were hunting a different country's secret agents who were using dangerously irresponsible magic that threatened to damage reality. They surrendered and helped us, because we were in full agreement about the immediate mission. We left them locked in a police station, from which they escaped neatly and without harming anyone. We couldn't really take that personally.
  2. We met them again when they'd stolen important plans and we'd tracked them down. They surrendered when they saw it was us, loaded for bear.
  3. We got to question them properly this time, and learned a great deal about werewolves (the wife, the husband is a magician). We sent them to our prison for magicians, which could hold them, and has reasonable POW conditions. We didn't learn very much about German magicians, but a few useful things.
  4. Nine months later, we presented the husband with comprehensive evidence that his fellows back in Germany were using demons and human sacrifice. He was much more forthcoming now, and told us a lot, distinguishing between what he knows and what he can deduce. We haven't turned him, but he now definitely distinguishes between the interest of Germany and the Nazis, and we can work with that.
Making full use of prisoners takes time: these interactions were mixed in with a lot of other play, over four years of real time and two years of game time. There's been a degree of respect on both sides: we're in the same business and we'll play the game fairly if they they will.
 

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