Problem with action points

[sinmissing]

I really do not like the way characters get action points. The finite nature of the AP pool is too meta-gamey and too much long term resource management. If this were a fate based game, I could totally understand that once you run out of APs, that's it, but the system as it stands seems counter intuitive to the nature of d20 in general.

Now I haven't played modern that often, but I've had a player more than once hoard APs because they weren't sure they would have enough when they "really" needed it, and then not realise they "really need it" until it was too late.

I'm imagining other ways that AP acquisition makes for a lousy game. What happens when two players play your game. 1 Player goes out of their way to be heroic, engage the game, and thrill his GM and fellows, and winds up spending alot of action points. The other player participates, but is cautious, hangs back, and hoards his action points. After several levels, player 1 has almost no points, player 2 has lots. Now 20th level characters with no action points is stylistic interesting; the hero at the end of his rope, whose pushed luck once to many times and now luck is coming at him with both barrels blazing; but this doesn't work for me in general. It just doesn't seem fair.

If I were to think about changing the system of AP acquisition, I might borrow an idea from the Savage Worlds benny system. Bennies in Savage Worlds are like Action Points in d20 Modern. A player gets x number of bennies every session, and they can't hoard them. You use them you lose them, you don't use them you lose them. I like this idea alot, because it gives a player at least one or two times to be heroic, a chance to avoid dumb luck, and most importantly not suffer long term setbacks because they've run out of bennies.

The problem I'm having, which I'd like to open for discussion, is how many action points are typically burned in a session? Again, my experience is limited, but I'm guessing that a conservative player spends about 1 or 2 a session, while the spendthrift doubles that. I'm thinking 3 Action Points each session is about right, and a feat could give you another one. (Luck)

What is your experience, and do I have the whole AP thing wrong? Is it really kewl, or am I tuning in to a commonly debated topic?

 

[d4]

Bennies in Savage Worlds are like Action Points in d20 Modern. A player gets x number of bennies every session, and they can't hoard them. You use them you lose them, you don't use them you lose them.

this isn't 100% true. any bennies a player doesn't use during the session have a chance to turn into experience points. so you don't necessarily "lose" if you hoard them.

from my experience playing d20 Modern, characters level fast enough that they rarely burn through all their action points before getting more. whether you like leveling that fast or not is another debate.

 

[hong]

I would allow a player to gain more APs by doing "cool" stuff, where the exact definition of "cool" depends on the group.

 

[C. Baize]

Personally, I don't see a problem with Action Points as they stand.
They're another resource for the players to use as they see fit.
It's not up to me to force someone to not hoard them.

 

[sinmissing]

this isn't 100% true.

Yes it is, you just added more detail than was necessary or relevant. But your other point is well taken. If you play d20 modern exactly as the authors designed it to be played, you would level at about the right time so as to have enough action points to make it to the next level. I guess I'm not playing d20 the right way.

I would allow a player to gain more APs by doing "cool" stuff, where the exact definition of "cool" depends on the group.

See this sounds like a good idea to me too, but I'm trying to make a level playing field. Doing heroic stuff or hanging back and living to fight another day is rewarding enough for those who choose that course of action. I'd rather encourage my players by removing limitations or cumbersome rules, rather than adding a layer of complexity, not that AP rewards are complex, just unnecessary if you simplify the rules.

It's not up to me to force someone to not hoard them.

Granted. Now consider the issue as if your player considered it to be an inequality at the table.

Another side affect of the session-driven AP pool, is that you can add more talents or effect that require the use of action points. If you are like me, and like to use/encourage basic classes more than AdC or PrC, or if you just want to give more talent options, giving a pool of AP each session makes the use of AP intensive activities more plausible. This has some interesting metagame ramifications as well.

 

[C. Baize]

Granted. Now consider the issue as if your player considered it to be an inequality at the table.

Which player? The one who hoards them, or the one who doesn't?

The one who hoards them has exactly the same opportunity to use the action points as the player who doesn't.
Conversely, the player who uses them has exactly the same opportunity to hoard the action points as the player who doesn't use them.

Let's take a look at a couple of (unrelated, but comparable) examples, of hoarding resources vs spending them.

Player A: his character spends every bit of wealth he gets in order to have the spiffiest gadgets in the group.
Player B: his character spends next to nothing.
The payoff? Player A's character has cooler stuff, while Player B's character has more wealth... Is there an inequality in that?

Now, something a little closer...
Player A's character uses Desert Eagle .50s. Guns a-blazin' charging through every door, kicking over tables and generally being quite the heroic spectacle.
Player B's character uses a Derringer, hacks computers, researches, and is generally the BBEG's biggest pain in the posterior due to his intelligence gathering. After all... you can always get more mooks.
On the surface, it looks like an inequality. To me, however, it looks like choices based on characterization.

The only way I'd go with encouraging the style of play you want to see is to award bonus XP for particularly heroic or cool gaming...
If Player A has his character jump through a window, with a diving rolling fall (Tumble skill) and come up shooting and succeeds in clearing out an area... award bonus XP... Gotta be careful with that, though... because if Player B has his character doing all the research and figures out where the BBEG is to begin with... well... Player A's character wouldn't have been the big hero if he was still looking for the secret entrance to the BBEG's lair behind the McDonalds, when it was actually to the side of the Piggly Wiggly.

What it comes down to is different gaming styles.
You seem to favor using up action points at the same rate they come in... it would seem that one of your players favors the more cautious route of saving them for a rainy day.
You could always throw in a few more rainy days.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Well, once you get players USED to using APs, you don't have the problem of hoarders, because, in general, there's only so many APs you can spend in a given session. So diminishing returns means (for illustration purposes) 5 APs and 25 APs are roughly equal in value if, in a given level, you find you need to spend only 5 APs. There's no POINT in having 100 APs and, really, 100 APs is worth no more than 5 APs, if 5 APs is what you'll need. In fact, the guy with 100 APs has HURT himself because his APs have, effectively, declined sharply in value as the moments in which they would be valuable has passed.

BUT, I do think there's a better system for APs. Indeed! Grim Tales. I think GTs AP system is a bit better because it doesn't have a learning curve. (Actually it has three settings, each with its own learning curve, but I'll illustrate one here, since it's probably what you're looking for.) This is the AP system I use for my Modern Superheroes game.

Characters get 5 + (1/2 Level) APs. They recieve these APs at the begining of a plot arc. At the begining of the next plot arc, they recieve 5 +1/2lvl again. APs don't add together, they refresh.

This tells the players that they have to USE those APs. You can't save them up for a rainy day. If a situation looks tight, burn an AP, it'll come back. You're not going to have "All The APs I Need" when a big situation breaks loose and, what, you need to spend 30 APs in 30 rounds? Nobody will.

Print out a quicksheet of "What You Can Do With APs" and give them to the players at the table. This will remind them that there are things they can do with their APs. They've gotten used to the system pretty quickly. Now they'll make a roll, hold up their hand so I don't rule on it right away, and decide if they need to burn an AP on it or not.

You can also refresh Per Session, but that can lead to them refreshing in the middle of a dramatic situation, for instance, which is why I went with Per Story Arc. Story Arc gives them SOME incentive to save up APs (for the climax) but I haven't seen them get too unduly worried about it. Everybody burned 3 APs or so last session, which was more than anybody had used in a single session so far, but none of the players were freaked out ... eventually they'll even begin to think about WHEN the AP would make for the most dramatic situation.

I also have an award system for APs. I use them to confirm Criticals and Fumbles (Fumbles are the most fun, really), and I use them when I do something bad to a PC "For The Betterment of the Story", which the players actually like. ( I.E. - "You wake up to find your car stolen, Bob. Have an AP. Now, what're you going to do without a car?" Etc etc.) I hand out APs as awards, as well, for good Role Playing. The Good Role Playing awards are special APs that "carry over". So if you get Golden AP and don't spend it, it'll tack on to your APs when they refresh. Golden APs are the first ones used, however, to keep people from hoarding again.

My LAST suggestion, and anecdote from my own table, is an element I stole from Savage Worlds. I use cards for initiative. Shuffle, deal a card around the table, that's the "number" rolled. It makes initiative faster (you can see who goes when) and I don't have to roll and note Init for a half-dozen baddies, I just deal myself six cards. I leave the jokers in. If you get a joker, for that round you have a free AP. It goes away when initiative is re-dealt, so use it or lose it. (It's also the only way Mooks get APs.) I also choose one card from the deck that, when dealt, you have -2 to all actions on that round. Just an additional spice of life.

--fje

 

[sinmissing]

Now this is what I was talking about. I should have gone with my gut feeling and just ripped the benny system from SW. (Everything except getting XP for not using bennies. - that just doesn't make sense. You could argue that thoughtful players who rely on tactics and planning don't use bennies, but that's just not true IME.)

 

[buzz]

FWIW, IIRC, Eberron introduces the concept of PCs having a fixed maximum of APs. Ergo, you can't really hoard them.

I don't have a problem with APs as they stand in d20M. They're so darn useful and so many talents depend on their expenditure, I don't see problems of hoarding. Actually, I'd reccomend using some of the suggestions from UA which broaden the things you can do with them. Players will spend 'em all the time then.

 

[Laslo Tremaine]

I have only played d20 Modern as a one-shot, so I don't have too much experience with it (I hope that will soon change when we start our d20 Future/Psychic's Handbook game).

I do have a ton of experience with Mutants and Masterminds. In that system you get a number of "Hero Points" per session (usually 5). They replenish at the begining of the next session, and if you don't use them, you lose them.

We love the way they work in M&M, and have no desire to change the way they are replenished. When we start our d20 Future game, we will definitely use this method, although we will probably give people 3 APs per session to start and then see if we want to increase that number later as we grow familiar with it.