D&D 5E Problems with Illusions

[jaelis]

Not sure where DC 15 came from. I assume a level 1 wizard 16 Int has DC 13; Anyone with 16 Int would have a default passive Investigation of 13.

I don't know how to explain the why bother clearer than I have. I do appreciate your answers.

Sorry, was thinking the DC would be 10 + stat + prof, don't know why. But math problems aside, I just feel that illusionists already have a bit of a tough time, which requires some creativity to work around. Having some creatures penetrate your illusions automatically would be unattractive.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Minor image is not concentration, and lasts 10 turns.

Okay, but I'm not getting something. What's the intent for superimposing a new copy if the same illusion over the old one? To trick them this time? Following that logic, who are you actually expecting to trick with that?

"Hey, Bob, that box over there isn't real! The shadow goes the wrong way!"

"Yeah, Fred, I see that, but now there's a second box that just appeared in the same place that has it's shadow going the right way."

"Huh, you're right, Bob, I guess that one's legit. Let's now talk about our evil plans!"

 

[Kobold Stew]

Sorry, was thinking the DC would be 10 + stat + prof, don't know why. But math problems aside, I just feel that illusionists already have a bit of a tough time, which requires some creativity to work around. Having some creatures penetrate your illusions automatically would be unattractive.

But knowing how your illusions operate in the (imagined) real world is very attractive.

 

[neogod22]

Thanks for the detailed response!
As I hoped was clear in the passage you quoted, I used the legacy language of disbelieving to map onto the 5e language of "make in Intelligence (Investigation) check". Because it's not a real investigation taking place -- it's an action that can take place at range, just by looking. (How do I know this? because it's something separate from interacting with the illusion -- so it's an investigation, but without an interaction. I think it's a bad design that was overly influenced by the legacy of disbelieving illusions.

And how does a PC investigate? By squinting?

The Intelligence check is fishy in other ways. How many monsters have proficiency in Investigation? To my knowledge, only the Deep Gnome and the NPC (appendix B) Spy have proficiency in Investigation. So it's also an unfair expectation, that gives an advantage to PCs (without DM fiddling).

You can't do an investigation check at ranged unless something is really off with the illusion (like an arrow flying through illusionary concealment), even then you should be fairly close (10-20' maybe?). But they would have to spend their action studying the object (investigation vs your spell DC) to see the illusion for what it is.

The problem with Minor illusion is that it only makes a 5x5 object, unless you're a halfling, you actually can't hide behind that. It would be similar as trying to hide behind a person.


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[neogod22]

Not sure where DC 15 came from. I assume a level 1 wizard 16 Int has DC 13; Anyone with 16 Int would have a default passive Investigation of 13.

I don't know how to explain the why bother clearer than I have. I do appreciate your answers.

No. You only get a passive investigation if you have the observant feat. At which case, it's double proficiency and for a lvl1 human pc with it with an INT at 16, it would be 17.

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[Ovinomancer]

You can't do an investigation check at ranged unless something is really off with the illusion (like an arrow flying through illusionary concealment), even then you should be fairly close (10-20' maybe?). But they would have to spend their action studying the object (investigation vs your spell DC) to see the illusion for what it is.

The problem with Minor illusion is that it only makes a 5x5 object, unless you're a halfling, you actually can't hide behind that. It would be similar as trying to hide behind a person.


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Where is this rule on the distance for investigate?

No. You only get a passive investigation if you have the observant feat. At which case, it's double proficiency and for a lvl1 human pc with it with an INT at 16, it would be 17.

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No, you have a passive for every skill, it represents repetitive skill use. If a player told me they were going to investigate everything in the dungeon, I'd use their passive investigation, for instance, and not roll for everything. There's nothing about the observant feat that grants an otherwise non-existent passive investigate.

 

[Tony Vargas]

But I do not see clarity in what we have.

"We are illusionists! We demand clarity!"
"But, ..our magic is all about deception & obfuscation, isn't it?"
"Oh! You're right! We demand the complete and total absence of clarity!"
"I demand that I may - or may not! - be Nebin, converted from 3.5 to 5e..."







...apologies to Douglas Adams.

 

[neogod22]

Where is this rule on the distance for investigate?No, you have a passive for every skill, it represents repetitive skill use. If a player told me they were going to investigate everything in the dungeon, I'd use their passive investigation, for instance, and not roll for everything. There's nothing about the observant feat that grants an otherwise non-existent passive investigate.

There is no rule for distance investigation. That would be up to the DM, but if you wanted to use a "passive investigation score," then that's how you would use it. There is not "passive" for every skill, because you can't automatically do every skill passively. There's a passive perception, because that's something you can actually notice something being off even if you're not actually looking for something. You can't passively investigate, just like you can't passively do athletics or passively use thieves tools.

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[neogod22]

Some DMs allow "passive skills" to speed the game up, but I don't like it because you're either going to always pass, or always fail. The is no chance in it. Also, they use passive perception wrong. Passive perception is supposed to be used to spot obvious things, not hidden things. Like a person with a high passive perception might spot a candlestick on a wall turned sideways, but it doesn't mean they will automatically detect a secret door.

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[Ovinomancer]

There is no rule for distance investigation. That would be up to the DM, but if you wanted to use a "passive investigation score," then that's how you would use it. There is not "passive" for every skill, because you can't automatically do every skill passively. There's a passive perception, because that's something you can actually notice something being off even if you're not actually looking for something. You can't passively investigate, just like you can't passively do athletics or passively use thieves tools.

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Some DMs allow "passive skills" to speed the game up, but I don't like it because you're either going to always pass, or always fail. The is no chance in it. Also, they use passive perception wrong. Passive perception is supposed to be used to spot obvious things, not hidden things. Like a person with a high passive perception might spot a candlestick on a wall turned sideways, but it doesn't mean they will automatically detect a secret door.

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Here's the SRD on passive checks:

Passive Checks
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn’t involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the GM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster. Here’s how to determine a character’s total for a passive check: 10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check If the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. The game refers to a passive check total as a score. For example, if a 1st-level character has a Wisdom of 15 and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) score of 14. The rules on hiding in the “Dexterity” section below rely on passive checks, as do the exploration rules.

Passive checks for every skill are a thing. You're mistaking the use of 'passive' for 'not trying' which isn't how it works. 'Passive' means 'not rolling dice' not 'not trying'. In any case where you don't want to roll all of the dice, as in a prolonged effort at the same skill, you can use a passive score instead. Swimming across a channel? Passive STR (athletics) can be used. Searching every wall of the dungeon for secret doors? Passive INT (investigation) can be used. Working for coin as a juggler? Passive DEX (perform) can be used. Any time you have a prolonged effort and don't want to roll dice every increment, that's what passive skills are there for.

So, passive perception is the most used not because you can passively notice things but because it's assumed that everyone is always trying to notice dangerous things around themselves when out in the dungeon (wilderness/town/whatever) and it's better than asking for a perception check every round/minute/room even when there's nothing to notice. So it's the obvious default answer. But, again, you still need to be trying to get a passive perception. You don't just get a passive score unless there's an attempt to do that thing, like with any attribute check.

To go back to the topic, though, unless your players are stating that they're investigating everything around them for reality, I wouldn't use a passive investigation against illusions.