Profession clarification
- Thread starter GuardianLurker
- Start date
Masada
First Post
Gads, no! That's the last thing I want to role play...
GM: Make a Will Save DC 20 or die of boredom in your gray cube.
I'm still surprised to hear problems with too much Wealth. There are always more expensive toys to buy. Failing that, there is a point in the game where the gear just doesn't matter.
If you find yourself with very rich PC's then move your campaign up a notch. If the players have mostly been a "hit team" of sorts, then give them a political agenda. Make the campaign bigger than just the smash and grab jobs. Buying gear is pretty straight forward, but buying influence can be much harder. Also, if the PC's have made any friends along the way, well then maybe those friends need help--posting bail, investiment money, loans to repay, etc.
Have the players start funding research in to better gear. Proto-types will cost 10 x's the cost of normal gear. (Be mindful of Monte Haul)
Something I don't see represented in the Wealth system is the real world scenario where as you make more money a larger percentage is taken away in taxes and other costs. In reality a PC who was keeping up with a profession would see regular wealth increase to about 15-20 and then plateau. At that point, unless you're in a major cash profession like doctor, lawyer, or investment banker, you're not going much higher in Wealth. Also, to actually get that wealth as a doctor/lawyer/banker you're spending 60 hours a week working--not adventuring.
So even if the PC's did succeed at the Profession check at level up I'd adjust it based on how much free time they player had to work their profession. So assuming the PC had managed to level without any time away from the job they'd get 100% of the bonus. If they could only have worked half-time, then they only get 50% of the bonus.
I might even get motivated and apply Wealth caps to Professions... So a garage mechanic would never be able to get a level up wealth bonus beyond 15 and a doctor might get as high as 30. This would only apply to level up wealth bonus checks. You could even be forgiving and say that the PC could always get +1 beyond their cap, but not more.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Masada said:
Like what? I'd love to hear this. (And realistic things, not tanks, helicopters or mansions, nor broken things like rocket launchers.)
That happens about level 2, IME.
There's very little rules support for this, and I don't have personal experience with using bribes, either.
Like the PCs would do that. I try not to use that as plot hooks, anyway. Teaming up with an NPC friend to make a business investment is one thing, but they're not going to bail someone out unless it's their own fault the guy got arrested.
No way! I've played D20 Future and DnD more than enough to realize how this is a huge problem.
While this is realistic, if you spend less than you're taking in, your Wealth will go up. For instance, if you're a lawyer, but you're not trying to become a partner (even if you have the skills to do so), you're probably not going to work all those extra hours. (I think not - I'm not a lawyer myself, and neither are many of my PCs.) So, you get a good paycheck, but not what your boss is making. However, you don't have any expenses other than a mortgage, utilities (water, electricity, cable bills, etc) and a car, and you don't spend money unwisely. Even if your character doesn't invest money, his Wealth will go up.
So even if the PC's did succeed at the Profession check at level up I'd adjust it based on how much free time they player had to work their profession. So assuming the PC had managed to level without any time away from the job they'd get 100% of the bonus. If they could only have worked half-time, then they only get 50% of the bonus.
I might even get motivated and apply Wealth caps to Professions... So a garage mechanic would never be able to get a level up wealth bonus beyond 15 and a doctor might get as high as 30. This would only apply to level up wealth bonus checks. You could even be forgiving and say that the PC could always get +1 beyond their cap, but not more.[/QUOTE]
Masada
First Post
I can tell you're frustrated by your current game situation. Many GM's run in to problems with rewards and game balance. All I can say is do your best.
If you never allow the players access to better gear or other things to do with their wealth, then they will have an abundance and not much to do with it. As a GM you have to make some arbitrary decisions to make game play more fun for all. If you are genuinely attempting to improve your game, your players will understand. Adding in reasonable gear shouldn't be unbalancing.
As to game hooks... It's not a cliche to have Bob call up and say he's got a hot tip on a sure fire investment--especially if the PC's are loaded. Folks with money always have people hanging on them for cash.
If you never allow the players access to better gear or other things to do with their wealth, then they will have an abundance and not much to do with it. As a GM you have to make some arbitrary decisions to make game play more fun for all. If you are genuinely attempting to improve your game, your players will understand. Adding in reasonable gear shouldn't be unbalancing.
As to game hooks... It's not a cliche to have Bob call up and say he's got a hot tip on a sure fire investment--especially if the PC's are loaded. Folks with money always have people hanging on them for cash.
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
If the PC's always gain Wealth, then you run into the problem where you have to make Wealth useless or putting "caps" in for certain professions based on how much the GM thinks a person working that job should make. Or deal with infinite Wealth.
But then you're trying to make Wealth into too much simulation and too little game tool. "Profession (Fry Cook) will only get you +4 Wealth maximum."
I think alot of people make Wealth harder than it has to be while ignoring alot of interesting story-telling situations with it at the same time. It's there to streamline the vagaries of buying and selling, turning it into something that can be another fun die roll in a game full of die rolls.
Would you let a player say: "I never swing anything other than my broadsword, and I practice with it a thousand strokes a day, and I should be a deadly combatant with it. My character would never swing with it when he wasn't sure of hitting something." And let him add more bonuses to his swings or always hit? The Attack Roll is in the game to give the vagaries of combat ... sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss, sometimes you do alot of damage, sometimes you don't. But alot of people want to say: "But my character never goes to the movies and doesn't own a TV and wouldn't ever buy a car and can work 50 hours and can make good investments so he should get more Wealth." People used to cash-based systems are often uncomfortable with why they can't make decisions like that and have it reflected in the game ... but it's the same situation as a player saying his character would never swing a sword when he wouldn't hit.
If somebody was desperate to "simulate" that his character was a whiz at investing and invested his earnings from being a lawyer to make more money ... I'd let him take Profession (Investor) and when he got 5 ranks give a synergy bonus to his Lawyer profession rolls. As close as it would need to be.
The system already self-caps ... when you have X ranks, even with a natural 20 you can only get Y Wealth. You can choose to work with your players and tell them that they shouldn't take more than 3-4 ranks in Profession (Frycook) if you think they shouldn't make big bucks in it ... or take 15 ranks in Profession (Frycook) as a potential story tool ... maybe they've moved up from making fries at the local Burger King to displaying their unusual frying talents at a specialty restaurant. If they roll a natural 1 on their Wealth roll and they stay at a lower-than-normal Wealth bonus, maybe they missed a vital day at work because of adventuring ... if they roll a natural 20 maybe they had a few great nights where they attracted the attention of some famous and rich individuals who like hamburgers.
It's a roll, like a combat roll, or a skill check. Story flows from combat rolls ... you wouldn't say: "I'm a total troll-hating troll-killer that never misses trolls." and become upset with an attack roll that misses the troll. A Dwarven Weaponsmith with Craft (Weapons) who fails a craft check ... do they still make progress on their item just because Dwarves are great smiths and the character is an "expert weaponsmith"?
Wealth is the same sort of situation. Let the story flow from the roll. The mechanic is just that, a mechanic. It can simulate very complex situations BECAUSE it is exceedingly simple, just like an attack roll simulates the give and take of battle. If a player does wonderfully on a roll, give an exciting description of how his job went and why ... if he blows the roll, make up an equally engaging story why. But keep the roll as it is because it's part of a system that's already been balanced. Profession (X) is there to average out Wealth, replacing Wealth lost to purchases, giving rewards for increasing ranks, but generally letting you say: "You have some sort of method by which you pay your bills and afford that Glock." What stories you tell with it ... same as the stories you tell with combat or skill checks.
--fje
But then you're trying to make Wealth into too much simulation and too little game tool. "Profession (Fry Cook) will only get you +4 Wealth maximum."
I think alot of people make Wealth harder than it has to be while ignoring alot of interesting story-telling situations with it at the same time. It's there to streamline the vagaries of buying and selling, turning it into something that can be another fun die roll in a game full of die rolls.
Would you let a player say: "I never swing anything other than my broadsword, and I practice with it a thousand strokes a day, and I should be a deadly combatant with it. My character would never swing with it when he wasn't sure of hitting something." And let him add more bonuses to his swings or always hit? The Attack Roll is in the game to give the vagaries of combat ... sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss, sometimes you do alot of damage, sometimes you don't. But alot of people want to say: "But my character never goes to the movies and doesn't own a TV and wouldn't ever buy a car and can work 50 hours and can make good investments so he should get more Wealth." People used to cash-based systems are often uncomfortable with why they can't make decisions like that and have it reflected in the game ... but it's the same situation as a player saying his character would never swing a sword when he wouldn't hit.
If somebody was desperate to "simulate" that his character was a whiz at investing and invested his earnings from being a lawyer to make more money ... I'd let him take Profession (Investor) and when he got 5 ranks give a synergy bonus to his Lawyer profession rolls. As close as it would need to be.
The system already self-caps ... when you have X ranks, even with a natural 20 you can only get Y Wealth. You can choose to work with your players and tell them that they shouldn't take more than 3-4 ranks in Profession (Frycook) if you think they shouldn't make big bucks in it ... or take 15 ranks in Profession (Frycook) as a potential story tool ... maybe they've moved up from making fries at the local Burger King to displaying their unusual frying talents at a specialty restaurant. If they roll a natural 1 on their Wealth roll and they stay at a lower-than-normal Wealth bonus, maybe they missed a vital day at work because of adventuring ... if they roll a natural 20 maybe they had a few great nights where they attracted the attention of some famous and rich individuals who like hamburgers.
It's a roll, like a combat roll, or a skill check. Story flows from combat rolls ... you wouldn't say: "I'm a total troll-hating troll-killer that never misses trolls." and become upset with an attack roll that misses the troll. A Dwarven Weaponsmith with Craft (Weapons) who fails a craft check ... do they still make progress on their item just because Dwarves are great smiths and the character is an "expert weaponsmith"?
Wealth is the same sort of situation. Let the story flow from the roll. The mechanic is just that, a mechanic. It can simulate very complex situations BECAUSE it is exceedingly simple, just like an attack roll simulates the give and take of battle. If a player does wonderfully on a roll, give an exciting description of how his job went and why ... if he blows the roll, make up an equally engaging story why. But keep the roll as it is because it's part of a system that's already been balanced. Profession (X) is there to average out Wealth, replacing Wealth lost to purchases, giving rewards for increasing ranks, but generally letting you say: "You have some sort of method by which you pay your bills and afford that Glock." What stories you tell with it ... same as the stories you tell with combat or skill checks.
--fje
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Masada said:
As I asked above, what better gear is there? I read your other thread. That stuff on cell phones was nice, but the amount of necessary equipment (or even "cultural" or "signature" equipment) is quite low. And I can't allow mastercraft stuff, because it will break my game.
They've got all the reasonable gear they can possible get ... except maybe better cell phones.
HeapThaumaturgist said:
It doesn't matter what they roll ... the way the rules are written, it's easy to interpret Profession as gaining Wealth no matter what each level. (Until I saw this thread, it never occurred to me it might be different. Even if I was wrong, it's too late to arbitrarily remove Wealth from the PCs.) I emailed Bullet Points about this topic, and if it's not in the next Bullet Points I'll go directly to www.thegamemechanics.com and ask there.
Masada
First Post
This is that "arbitration for the good of the game" part I was talking about. There are no rules to get you out of this spot. Make something up... Stockmarket crash... insurance fraud... CEO took the cash a skipped to Monte Carlo... the Mafia shows up demanding 50%... Grandmother dying with no medical insurance... oops! my suitcase of cash fell out of the plane... My secret stash is missing... some dirty banker nicked it... some aweful crime I committed has been traced to the money and now I can't use it... the son of the dictator I removed has surrounded my current location with 1st Air Borne Division of Muldovia and is demanding tribute... All arbitrary occurrances that would hopeful restore game balance and provide, at least, a humorous anecdote in your story line.
Other gear...
Vanity items can be virtually anything... cars, clothes, jewelry, phones, comptuers, shoes, hair cuts, furniture, heck even fountain pens! Looking back at it I'd be tempted to say *everything* you buy had to be +2 over the listed Purchase DC to gain a bonus.
Computers that add +1 bonus to a specific knowledge checks for +2 Purchase DC per.
Headsets with better range
Headsets with encryption
Lighter armor
More effective knockout grenades
Wicked goggles that see laser sensors
All just suggestions/ideas...
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