D&D 5E Proficiency vs. Ability vs. Expertise

[Parmandur]

The added randomness is nice, true, but it would slow down game play (albeit not a lot...) and could lead to even higher numbers, making even more times when he is unnoticeable.

Not terribly slowed down: and yes, it would be a wash mathematically in the long run, averaging out to the same numbers. However, changing the basic numbers is much more likely to cause problems with the game, by throwing things out of whack all around. Thing is, Rogues are supposed to be able to succeed by huge amounts on a regular basis: may as well ban Rogues rather than break the system so they can't do their thing.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, the current DM is involved but for our group I will soon be DMing. The issue we originally had RAW is characters with ability scores of +3 or +4 with proficiency at +4 and expertise getting +11 or +12 total. While this might not seem like much, with things like stealth and most creatures having such horrible passive perception, the main rogue in our group was practically undetectable. He would roll an 8, and have a 20. Few monsters have a passive perception of 20! We saw it as game-breaking as the rogue could sneak into and out of places without hardly a risk of being noticed. Yeah, we get it, he is mid-level with a great DEX and expertise, he should be good, but there comes a point where it takes some of the excitement out of the game when you are making hard checks routinely. So...

This is one of the reasons that I dislike passive perception. I already give advantage to the passive perception of groups of creatures that someone is trying to sneak past, since with many sets of eyes, someone will be probably looking at any given direction at any given time. However, I'm thinking about removing passive perception during times of risk and going to opposed rolls.

 

[Esker]

This is true. Some rogues conned their things out of fighters.

Yeah, I conned those things fair and square!

 

[Mistwell]

Right, but "knows about Arcana stuff" is a bit different from "can be better at Arcana (as a C student) than the best Wizard."

Odd interactions are odd, even if a close analog is not.

The wizard is a field tech. The rogue is a professor.

 

[Esker]

Yes, the current DM is involved but for our group I will soon be DMing. The issue we originally had RAW is characters with ability scores of +3 or +4 with proficiency at +4 and expertise getting +11 or +12 total. While this might not seem like much, with things like stealth and most creatures having such horrible passive perception, the main rogue in our group was practically undetectable. He would roll an 8, and have a 20. Few monsters have a passive perception of 20! We saw it as game-breaking as the rogue could sneak into and out of places without hardly a risk of being noticed. Yeah, we get it, he is mid-level with a great DEX and expertise, he should be good, but there comes a point where it takes some of the excitement out of the game when you are making hard checks routinely.

I'm not seeing why succeeding on an 8 on a stealth check is a problem. That's only a 65% chance of success. A cloud giant has a passive perception of 17, so with a +12 you need to roll a 5 or better to sneak around them (and that's assuming you're not sneaking past any guards who are making active checks). So the level 9 rogue specializing in stealth has an 80% chance to sneak around a cloud giant. And that's assuming they're going off by themselves, so that if they fail, they're in a lot of hot water. Why is that a problem?

And that's on a skill that aligns with the rogue's main ability score. It's even less of an issue when you get to skills like investigation, perception, deception, athletics, etc.

 

[Esker]

I actually think that given your stated goals of bringing drama back into situations where rogues are almost guaranteed success, your proposed fix goes in the wrong direction. Reducing the expertise bonus and granting advantage means more near-auto-success on moderate challenges, but a lower ceiling on the level of difficulty that you can overcome with a lucky roll.

 

[Maxperson]

To those who think that rogues shouldn't be better at a field than the best of those who specialize in the field(ie wizards and arcana), what if you gave each class 1 of their class skills and let them apply expertise to it. Include rogues so that their expertise class feature doesn't get gimped. That way a wizard who was an expert in arcana would at worst be tied with a rogue of the same level whose player raised his int to 20 for some reason.

Non-rogue/bard: 1 expertise skill that has to be on their initial list.
Rogue/bard: 5(eventually) expertise skills.

 

[Esker]

To those who think that rogues shouldn't be better at a field than the best of those who specialize in the field(ie wizards and arcana), what if you gave each class 1 of their class skills and let them apply expertise to it. Include rogues so that their expertise class feature doesn't get gimped. That way a wizard who was an expert in arcana would at worst be tied with a rogue of the same level whose player raised his int to 20 for some reason.

Non-rogue/bard: 1 expertise skill that has to be on their initial list.
Rogue/bard: 5(eventually) expertise skills.

Nice idea! I wish I'd thought of that...

What would you think about giving every character expertise in one skill from their starting class's skill list? Wizards could have arcana expertise then, rangers could have survival, barbarians could have athletics, clerics could have religion (as it is, it's really hard for clerics to be good at religion checks, which is weird), ... Then rogues (and knowledge clerics) would get to be really good at three things at level 1, but restricted to things on their class list. Then maybe arcane trickster would get arcana proficiency and can choose to use one of their 6th level expertise picks on it; sort of like the scout gets extra expertise in survival and nature (which aren't on the rogue list), except it's not an extra pick, just an extra option.

Oh, huh.

 

[Mistwell]

Most Players: The rogue is a tad weak.

This Thread: Let's take one of the only things Rogues do better than others, and nerf it or give it to everyone else!

Rogue Player: [Slams head on table]

 

[Maxperson]

Nice idea! I wish I'd thought of that...

Oh, huh.

Hey! I don't read every post. Sue me!!

Besides, my idea is a bit more flexible. Rather than just assign a skill to a specific class, they could pick from one of their chosen proficiencies. A wizard could pick history or investigation for example. Also, I'm not restricting rogues to their class list.