D&D 5E Progressive Spell Casting

[steeldragons]

Has anyone ever tried a game, or perhaps a system is out there somewhere that's already done this, but has anyone ever thought of having their spellcasting characters simply..."get" spells? But on a very specific and limited scale.

D&D has generally done this with clerics (auto-access to spells on the list) and wizards have always been able to "pick" [at least one] new spell as they leveled up...

But I'm thinking something more...structured. The casting progression/slots can stay the same the magic is, kinda just "figured out" or accessed as you level, entirely...and with a smooth (or steep if you preferred, I suppose) even power-increase.

Example Wizard/Mage/Sorcerer.arcane caster:
At 1st level, you have your slots for however many you can cast, "know" or "prepare, and cast as needed, but only from:
Detect Magic
Light
Sleep
Protection from Evil

At 2nd level, you can add: Magic Missile, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Fog Cloud.

At 3rd level, you add: Burning Hands, Shield, and, say, Knock, Mirror Image.

At 4th level add: Arcane Lock, Detect Thoughts, Levitate, Web,

At 5th level: Detect Invisible, Invisibility, and Dispel Magic, Lightning Bolt

...and so on.

It would be limiting on player choice, yes. But I'm wondering if it might still be flavorful and fun, while also being a "quick n' easy" simple system...

I dunno...just popped into my head, so throwing it out there.

 

[TwoSix]

There were several 3.5 era classes similar to this concept; the warmage, beguiler, and dread necromancer. They had a limited, thematic spell list, but could cast every spell from their spell list. Pretty similar to what you're saying, although slightly more staggered. (New spells were only gained on even levels.)

I'm quite partial to the concept, personally, enough that I advocated that a then hypothetical 4th edition would use the concept for baseline casters.

 

[cbwjm]

I've thought about doing this in the past with spell paths and the recent mystic article made me think on it again. In this case casters would have access to spheres of power, probably gaining more as they levelled. If they have the sphere of fire then they might gain spells like: burning hands, pyrotechnics, scorching ray, fireball, wall of fire, etc. automatically as they levelled. If they also had sphere of knowledge then they might also gain: comprehend languages, identify, find traps, clairvoyance, etc. as well.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Rolemaster and related games like Middle Earth Roleplaying had a system of spells that I really liked. Basically, it was a bunch of spell lists that represented a growing expertise in that class of spells.

So a 5e approach would be lists of 9 spells like:

Fire Spells
0 Fire Bolt
1 Burning Hands
2 Flaming Sphere
3 Fireball
4 Fire Shield
5 Immolation
6 Investiture of Flame
7 Wall of Fire
8 Incendiary Cloud
9 Meteor Swarm

The idea is that you learn the basic spell, and as you learn to control the magic more, you learn the other options automatically. On the one hand, it lets you select your special focus, which is cool. It works better if the spells are designed around this concept, rather than just trying to group similar spells. You might have your access limited to a certain number of spell lists, or you only get spells in the lists you learn at 1st level, unless you find other lists on your adventures.

Another approach that I've considered for sorcerers is that as spellcasters that shape magic using their innate ability, they have to learn more complex methods to shape the magic. In addition, they start by shaping the magical energies themselves into something useable.

So a 1st-level sorcerer could start with say, two damage types (lighting, fire, force, etc.). They then have access to all of the spells at that level that use that energy type, including other energy-based spells.

So if you have lightning, you can use the cantrips:

Lightning touch (reworked chill touch), lightning bolt (fire bolt), ray of lightning (ray of frost), and shocking grasp.

1st level spells
Lightning hands (burning hands), witch bolt, etc.

A better way to do it is to define what effects are possible at each spell level. So a touch spell is easier to cast than a ray, and something like fireball where the center of the effect is a distance away from you is harder still. Spells that require an attack roll are easier than those that require a saving throw, or something like that.

There are some really interesting possibilities, but to make them work well you really have to redesign the spell system for that approach. It doesn't mean it can't co-exist with another spell system - so wizards use one, and sorcerers use a different one. But it's a pretty big undertaking. I started working on some variations for my campaign, and it took a back seat to more important things. But I may still try to implement something like either of these, or a combination, for sorcerers. I'd really like for their spellcasting to be completely different from wizards.

 

[Ath'kethin]

There was a mid 90s Dragon Magazine article called "Paths of Power" that took a similar approach. It pointed out the weirdness of spell acquisition in the base game, in that the learning is haphazard and there seems to be no real "course of study." It arranged all of the 2e spells into "paths," where a character had to learn, say, burning hands before learning fireball. Essentially, learning any spell required knowing the lower-level spells that logically would come before it in an academic learning sort of sense.

It's a tougher idea to pull off on 5e because there just aren't that many spells. Had I the time and inclination, I would come up with new spells to fill the gaps and make such a series of lists, but it's such a monumental undertaking I just don't think it's worth the time.

 

[CapnZapp]

Does progressives really cast spells differently than conservatives...?

 

[Ilbranteloth]

There was a mid 90s Dragon Magazine article called "Paths of Power" that took a similar approach. It pointed out the weirdness of spell acquisition in the base game, in that the learning is haphazard and there seems to be no real "course of study." It arranged all of the 2e spells into "paths," where a character had to learn, say, burning hands before learning fireball. Essentially, learning any spell required knowing the lower-level spells that logically would come before it in an academic learning sort of sense.

It's a tougher idea to pull off on 5e because there just aren't that many spells. Had I the time and inclination, I would come up with new spells to fill the gaps and make such a series of lists, but it's such a monumental undertaking I just don't think it's worth the time.

Well, the obvious starting point would be to go back to the article and see what spells are currently missing from 5e. I'll have to dig that one up.

 

[Ratskinner]

Another approach that I've considered for sorcerers is that as spellcasters that shape magic using their innate ability, they have to learn more complex methods to shape the magic. In addition, they start by shaping the magical energies themselves into something useable.

So a 1st-level sorcerer could start with say, two damage types (lighting, fire, force, etc.). They then have access to all of the spells at that level that use that energy type, including other energy-based spells.
<snippage>

A better way to do it is to define what effects are possible at each spell level. So a touch spell is easier to cast than a ray, and something like fireball where the center of the effect is a distance away from you is harder still. Spells that require an attack roll are easier than those that require a saving throw, or something like that.

I've lately been thinking about defining sorcerers without spells, by putting an envelope around a few basic abilities that they can use. Just make the envelope bigger as they level, maybe add a few new tricks. Heck, you could maybe have classes defined by what the sorcerer manipulates: Energy (Fire/Cold, Thunder, Lightning, Radiant, etc.), Matter (Earth, Air, Water), or Mind (Illusion, Telepathy, etc.). I'd have to see what they look like to know for sure if that is one class or three, but I suspect three.

So, an Energy Sorcerer might have to choose an energy type and then get abilities to go with that type:
Detect [Energy] - sense creatures or locations strong in that energy
Project [Energy] - ranged attack
Turn [Energy] - vs. creatures using that type of energy
[Energy] Barrier - make a wall of that type of energy which deals damage when crossed
[Energy] Strike - channel that type of energy through a weapon you are using for extra damage
Resist [Energy] - absorb/deflect that type of energy
You'd start with some collection of them and base values for damage, range, etc. As you level up, those base stats might get increase, or you get to add meta-magic style tricks to them. Different subclasses for each energy type (a la wizard subclasses by school) could get little thematic perks at whatever levels need a little spice.

A Matter Sorcerer (Bender?) would pick an element and get...
[Element] Barrier - whip up a wall of that element
[Element] Defense - get armor of, or defend yourself with that type of element
[Elemental] Movement - special movement ability through/with your element (possibly a subclass perk, due to the variability.)
[Elemental] Hindrance - trapping, pushing, or grappling at a distance with your element
[Elemental] Strike - a basic attack with your element
Transform [Element] - change the form of your element (water/ice, rock/mud or flowstone, air/vacuum?/mist?/poison gas?)
Again, the ranges, amounts, and other mechanical details increase with level, and possibly the expenditure of Bender Points. Each subclass would get perks and kickers for thematically appropriate for their element.

Mind Sorcerers (Mindwalkers?) wouldn't get to pick a sub-mind type, but they would possibly have other subclasses related to approach or specialization. Again, they would have base abilities, but I suspect these might qualitatively as well as quantitatively improve, possibly accessed by the expenditure of Mental Energy points. Some might require mental calm not possible during combat, making them a kind of ritual.
Empathy -> Telepathy -> Mind Link - ranged mental communication
Clairvoyance - remote viewing, psychic spying
Disembodiment - leave your body in ghostly form, can communicate.
Warp Senses -> Psychic Illusion -> Full Delusion - unlike illusionist, you don't create phantasms or shadows, you manipulate the senses directly.
Psychic Storm - a kind of ranged attack dealing psychic damage
Distract - induce fear, confusion, or stun conditions
Clarify - remove or protect against fear, confusion, or stun conditions
Charm -> Dominate
Mind Meld - let's you dig through someone's mind for memories or information
I could see subclasses for things like a Mentor with leadership/buffing abilities, a Medium with mild necromantic abilities dealing with spirits, ghosts, etc., perhaps some kind of not-Illusionist as well, a Detective would work well.

just my $.02

 

[discosoc]

A lot of DMs did this back in 2nd Edition. Wizards couldn't just learn spells as they leveled back then, instead relying on finding scrolls and spell books (placed by the DM as treasure, of course). A lot of the more broken spells seemed to never show up, or they'd show up several levels later than they could first be learned. It was actually one of two main things a DM could do to keep the wizard balanced with the rest of the group, just like great magic weapons weren't usually handed based on what the player's 1st choice was.

The other thing a DM could do was actually follow the rules for spell memorization which meant it could take days to fully memorize all spell slots later on. Unfortunately, most DM's seemed to houserule that away and simply let the player do it all during their nightly rest. Always made me laugh when those same guys complained about the party wizard being OP...

 

[Ath'kethin]

A lot of DMs did this back in 2nd Edition. Wizards couldn't just learn spells as they leveled back then, instead relying on finding scrolls and spell books (placed by the DM as treasure, of course). A lot of the more broken spells seemed to never show up, or they'd show up several levels later than they could first be learned. It was actually one of two main things a DM could do to keep the wizard balanced with the rest of the group, just like great magic weapons weren't usually handed based on what the player's 1st choice was.

The other thing a DM could do was actually follow the rules for spell memorization which meant it could take days to fully memorize all spell slots later on. Unfortunately, most DM's seemed to houserule that away and simply let the player do it all during their nightly rest. Always made me laugh when those same guys complained about the party wizard being OP...

It's amazing how well balanced the game ended up being if you actually followed the rules, wasn't it?