dave2008
Legend
Giffy's math being based on blog of holding is not necessarily a good thing IMO.
D&D 5E Project Monsters by Level (not CR)
Matrix Sorcica
Hero
My point was that you may end up spending a lot of time on something others have done with pretty much the same pricision, since CR is bonked anyway.
People constantly repeat this.
There are trap monsters (monsters with "save or die" abilities). There are monsters whose CR is off by like 1 point. And dragons are often under-CR'd by up to 2. And the encounter building rules don't handle "hetrogeneous" groups well (like, a pile of CR 1/8 and one large CR - the rules don't cover it at all).
But... that is the closest to "bonked" I have seen in a main-monster-manual monster.
So I'll ask what I've asked before. Can you give me 3 monsters from main books with "bonked" CR?
dave2008
Legend
There work is similar, but not the same. I am not really looking for a table to convert CR to level. I am looking to determine what a baseline level is, then determine what a challenging monster is for that level. Simply converting CR to level will not do that. It is interesting and helpful, but it will only get me so far.
Matrix Sorcica
Hero
I meant the way CR is determined (resistance to non magic weapons affecting CR despite being worthless at level 5 at the latest, save or suck spells not affecting CR, but flame bolt does, stuff like that)
Matrix Sorcica
Hero
I'm not sure I see the big difference. What's challenging monster for this level vs what's a challenging CR (= monster) for this level
And what will be the result? A few pages of guidelines, or do you plan on converting all MM monsters?
Not trying to be snarky, I'm just really trying to understand
FitzTheRuke
Legend
I just took a look at them side-by-side. While I really like Giffy's results (in that their monster statblocks look pretty nice to me, barring a few things that I would do very differently), I think that Forge of Foes has better baseline charts.
I honestly think starting with an unoptimized poorly played Rogue is a good first step.
Short sword, melee attack, no advantage, but does have a (otherwise not helping) ally enabling sneak attack.
Then add in minor optimization. Dual wielding rapiers, uses uncanny dodge. See how many baseline rogues it can kill in a row.
Then add in heavier optimization. Optimal subclass, SCAG cantrips, uncommon gear in T2, rare in T3, very rare in T4.
Run each against the previous versions in "1 at a time, but with the assumption aoe damage isn't wasted and you get an ally to enable sneak attack" fights.
You can then factor in short-rest resources (in rogues case, usually just HD) and long-rest resources (usually HP and HD).
I'd peg a "L X monster" as a part way between an unoptimized and minorly optimized power level. Design wise, I'd have "role" based power boost that makes up ~25% of the power budget.
Note that the general power level of a creature is (offence) times (defence) in a typical fight. This is quadratic, so it might be a good idea to take the square root to make it linear. (If you make one creature with the O+D of two creatures, you get a creature with 4x the power if you just multiply them; hence, quadratic. The square root is a first approximation that keeps it linear; this isn't quite perfect, as one creature with 2O and 2D is different than two 1O 1D creatures in a few ways; it has CC problems, it is stronger against AOEs, and against focus fire it deals 33% more damage in a fight; arguably 2x 1O1D is power 3, while 2O2D is power 4.)
Short sword, melee attack, no advantage, but does have a (otherwise not helping) ally enabling sneak attack.
Then add in minor optimization. Dual wielding rapiers, uses uncanny dodge. See how many baseline rogues it can kill in a row.
Then add in heavier optimization. Optimal subclass, SCAG cantrips, uncommon gear in T2, rare in T3, very rare in T4.
Run each against the previous versions in "1 at a time, but with the assumption aoe damage isn't wasted and you get an ally to enable sneak attack" fights.
You can then factor in short-rest resources (in rogues case, usually just HD) and long-rest resources (usually HP and HD).
I'd peg a "L X monster" as a part way between an unoptimized and minorly optimized power level. Design wise, I'd have "role" based power boost that makes up ~25% of the power budget.
Note that the general power level of a creature is (offence) times (defence) in a typical fight. This is quadratic, so it might be a good idea to take the square root to make it linear. (If you make one creature with the O+D of two creatures, you get a creature with 4x the power if you just multiply them; hence, quadratic. The square root is a first approximation that keeps it linear; this isn't quite perfect, as one creature with 2O and 2D is different than two 1O 1D creatures in a few ways; it has CC problems, it is stronger against AOEs, and against focus fire it deals 33% more damage in a fight; arguably 2x 1O1D is power 3, while 2O2D is power 4.)
FitzTheRuke
Legend
Could you give me a practical example of this, as I'm having trouble picturing it. The old brain ain't quite as sharp as it was once.
For example, if I wanted to make a monster where three of them was "worth" about 1 "regular" monster of the same level (or CR) or alternately, I wanted to make a monster that was "worth" THREE regular monsters, how ought I multiply them?
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