Project Phoenix is live!

[StormingMarcus]

I dunno... giving them something at every level leads to more crap to keep track of (unless they're simply scaling abilities, in which case they're kind of boring).

But it's more consistent if every class gets something at every level... And, if you are the player, it's in your interest to keep track of your goodies. If you're the master, NPCs don't have to be perfectly in line with all the rules (you can simply remember major details/abilities).

 

[Merlin's Shadow]

I know, but I couldn't justify giving them a -2 to both - that just gimps them too much. I could just go with -2 Int and drop the Cha penalty.

I think that would be better, -2 Int that is.

 

[Kerrick]

I've added a bunch of new content in the last few days: the spells are up, the traps, the basic monster info (types & subtypes, monsters as races, etc.), and some discussions.

 

[-Archangel-]

Well, considering the 3.5 monk was pretty powerful, it's not hard to make it LESS powerful, though I thought it was pretty close. I wanted to change it from a mishmash of unrelated abilities into a focused, cohesive whole. As far as balance of fighting styles... I can't really say, since it hasn't been playtested. How do you rate them, balancewise?

I do not know what game you played but monks were not pretty powerful.
At lower levels they are weaker then fighters and at high levels although they can withstand magical attacks better then fighters their attacks and hits are weaker. And their critical is always crap.
They also have a real problem breaking through any DR that is not magical. lawful or adamantine.

Pathfinder Monks have been given cool abilities to play with and a Ki pool so they can do some of the cool monk abilities more times per day. I am sorry, but your monk has nothing new that makes it a good class to play.

 

[Kerrick]

So does anyone have anything to add besides "the monk sucks"?

 

[Gansk]

Good job - I'm incorporating a lot of this stuff into my house rules!

 

[Aus_Snow]

Well, I'd be curious to see how an actual Monk of each kind (3.5's and yours) would look, side by side, as it were. At low, low-mid, mid-high and high and near-epic levels, or so.

I mean sure, I can gauge certain things just by looking, but - and I don't know about you guys - a solid analysis sometimes requires more than just that, for me.

Not needing Wisdom is a strong plus for some time, but yes, of course that means you can't go the usual 3e stat-boost route (for Wis, anyhow).

On that note, I might suggest Uncanny Dodge as being exceedingly appropriate, and well, damn useful, given Dex's new level of importance. Are UD and IUD a possibility, do you think?

Regardless, the flavour of the Monk (and other things) is a definite improvement over standard 3e, IMO. Nice work there. I'll have to try to determine more about the balance side of things, in due time. But yeah, some statted out PCs would help immensely there. If no-one else does, I might get around to it, but this is a very busy time atm. :\

 

[Kerrick]

Good job - I'm incorporating a lot of this stuff into my house rules!

Cool!

Well, I'd be curious to see how an actual Monk of each kind (3.5's and yours) would look, side by side, as it were. At low, low-mid, mid-high and high and near-epic levels, or so.

I mean sure, I can gauge certain things just by looking, but - and I don't know about you guys - a solid analysis sometimes requires more than just that, for me.

Exactly. I think it's on a par with the 3.5 monk, but I can't really say myself, because I haven't playtested it.

Not needing Wisdom is a strong plus for some time, but yes, of course that means you can't go the usual 3e stat-boost route (for Wis, anyhow).

I removed Wisdom as the main stat so as to prevent some of the symptoms of MAD, and because it made more sense for the different styles to rely on different abilities.

On that note, I might suggest Uncanny Dodge as being exceedingly appropriate, and well, damn useful, given Dex's new level of importance. Are UD and IUD a possibility, do you think?

They make sense, sure, but I'm not sure where to put them. I'm also considering boosting their BAB to high, since they're basically an unarmed fighter - it would give them a better advantage in combat.

Regardless, the flavour of the Monk (and other things) is a definite improvement over standard 3e, IMO. Nice work there.

Thanks.

I'll have to try to determine more about the balance side of things, in due time. But yeah, some statted out PCs would help immensely there. If no-one else does, I might get around to it, but this is a very busy time atm. :

I could maybe whip up a few at L5, 10, and 15 - the vanilla monk, and a couple random styles.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Resist Enchantments (Ex): Elves are immune to magic sleep effects and have a +2 racial bonus to saves against enchantment spells or effects.

At 10th level, and every ten levels thereafter, the bonus increases by +1.

I'm curious to know why you chose the cap at +4 rather than +5. I'd have given them a +1 increase at 6th level, then an additional +1 every 6 levels thereafter.

 

[Kerrick]

They also have a real problem breaking through any DR that is not magical. lawful or adamantine.

Don't forget bludgeoning.

I made some changes to the DR system and I forgot to apply them to the monk. I think I'll just have their unarmed strike be considered magical and scale with level - it gains +1 per 4 levels. They'll lose a bit since they won't get +3 (bypass alignment) until 12th and +5 (adamantine) until 20th, but they gain a whole lot more - the ability to bypass ANY DR, besides weapon type (bludgeoning/slashing/piercing, and unarmed is bludgeoning anyway). I think it's a fair tradeoff - it'll make them more capable combatants when fighting unarmed, without having to rely on magical fistwraps or whatever.

I'm curious to know why you chose the cap at +4 rather than +5. I'd have given them a +1 increase at 6th level, then an additional +1 every 6 levels thereafter.

It wasn't really a matter of choosing the cap (since I'm designing the system to scale beyond L20), but more of "every 10 levels looks like a good idea".

I could maybe whip up a few at L5, 10, and 15 - the vanilla monk, and a couple random styles.

Okay. I've run a series of comparisons between the old monk and the new monk from three different styles: Mountain because it's my favorite, and Shadow and Wind because they most closely model the vanilla monk's abilities. I've done it for 5th, 10th, and 15th levels. All the monks are humans with the heroic array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10. For ease of comparison (and because I'm lazy), they have no gear. Bonus feats are marked with asterisks (*). Stat boosts gained from levels are noted. Improved Unarmed Strike is the new version of Improved Unarmed Combat; my version of IUC lets you perform unarmed manuevers without provoking AoOs. Also, my version of Dodge adds a flat +1 dodge bonus to AC. Obviously, these are pretty combat-focused builds; a real monk probably wouldn't have this many combat feats.

Let the battle begin!

5th level
[sblock]Vanilla monk, human male Mnk 5; HD 5d8+5; hp 27; Init +6; Spd 40 ft.; AC 16, touch 16, flat-footed 14; Base Atk +3; Grp +4; Atk +6 melee (1d8+1/x2, unarmed strike); Full Atk +6 melee (1d8+1/x2, unarmed strike) or +6/+6 melee (1d8+1/x2, flurry of blows); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Ki strike (magic); SQ Evasion, purity of body, slow fall 20 ft., still mind; AL LN; SV Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +6; Str 13, Dex 16 (+1), Con 12, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 10.

Feats: Combat Reflexes*, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Combat*, Stunning Fist*, Weapon Finesse.


(Aside: While you could make a vanilla monk with high Strength and mid-to-low Dex, I don't think it would be very effective; most of the monk's abilities are designed around them being mobile and agile, and there's very little wiggle room - that's part of why I went with different styles.)

Mountain Style monk: human male Mnk 5; HD 5d8+10; hp 32; Init +1; Spd 30 ft.; AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 13; Base Atk +3; Grp +5; Atk +7 melee (1d6+2/x2, unarmed strike); Full Atk +7 melee (1d6+2/x2, unarmed strike) or +7/+7 melee (1d6+1/x2, unarmed strike); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Iron fist, ki strike (magic); SQ DR 2/-, evasion, slow fall 20 ft.; AL LN; SV Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +7; Str 16 (+1), Dex 12, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 11.

Feats: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Unarmed Strike*, Power Attack*, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)


Shadow Style monk: human male Mnk 5; HD 5d8+5; hp 27; Init +2; Spd 30 ft.; AC 17, touch 17, flat-footed 15; Base Atk +3; Grp +4; Atk +5 melee (1d6+1/x2, unarmed strike); Full Atk +5 melee (1d6+1/x2, unarmed strike) or +5/+5 (1d6+1/x2, unarmed strike); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Ki strike (magic), pain touch; SQ Evasion, slow fall 20 ft.; AL LN; SV Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +4; Str 13, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16 (+1), Wis 11, Cha 10.

Feats: Combat Expertise*, Improved Finesse, Improved Unarmed Strike*, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (unarmed)


Wind Style monk: human male Mnk 5; HD 5d8+5; hp 27; Init +7; Spd 40 ft.; AC 19, touch 19, flat-footed 15; Base Atk +3; Grp +4; Atk +6 melee (1d6/x2, unarmed strike); Full Atk +6 melee (1d6/x2, unarmed strike) or +6/+6 (1d6/x2, unarmed strike); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Ki strike (magic); SQ Evasion, rushing wind, slow fall 20 ft.; AL LN; SV Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +4; Str 12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 10.

Feats: Dodge (adds flat +1 AC bonus), Improved Init., Mobility, Improved Unarmed Strike*, Weapon Finesse*


Analysis: Making the AC bonus gained from Awareness of Self a dodge bonus kind of screws them, I noticed - they'd all have AC 10, without any gear - so I decided to go with insight instead (I think I had originally planned for it to be insight, then changed it).

Neither side is really favored here. The new monks lose immunity to disease (but I severely limited immunities in general) and still mind (not sure why I dropped that; maybe I thought it was immunity?). A Mountain Style monk could beat a vanilla monk (or most other opponents) into paste, assuming the opponent can't run away; the Shadow monk's pain touch is pretty useful (yeah, I need to clarify it a bit), as is the Wind monk's rushing wind. The new monks deal slightly less damage (1 point on average), and average save is about 1 point less (5.6 vs. ~4.3).

I don't see a whole lot of variation between the styles - the Mountain monk will win hands-down in a toe-to-toe brawl, but the Wind monk could run circles around him and wear him down with trip attacks, and a Shadow monk could likely hold his own long enough to do major damage (especially with called shots). Shadow vs. Wind? Tough to call. I'm going to give Shadow monks a +2 bonus to called shots due to their training in striking nerve points (as a style bonus ability), so a couple shots against the Wind monk's legs would slow him down enough for the Shadow monk to finish him off; conversely, if the Wind monk can avoid being hit, he could probably win.[/sblock]


Level 10
[sblock]
Vanilla monk, human male Mnk 10; HD 10d8+10; hp 55; Init +7; Spd 60 ft.; AC 18, touch 18, flat-footed 14; Base Atk +7; Grp +8; Atk +10 melee (1d10+1/x2, unarmed strike); Full Atk +10/+5 melee (1d10+1/x2, unarmed strike) or +10/+10/+5 melee (1d10+1/x2, flurry of blows); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Ki strike (lawful, magic); SQ Evasion, improved evasion, purity of body, slow fall 50 ft., still mind, wholeness of body; AL LN; SV Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +8; Str 13, Dex 16 (+2), Con 12, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 10.

Feats: Combat Reflexes*, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip*, Improved Unarmed Combat*, Mobility, Stunning Fist*, Weapon Finesse.


Mountain Style monk: human male Mnk 10; HD 10d8+20; hp 65; Init +1; Spd 40 ft.; AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 13; Base Atk +7; Grp +10; Atk +10 melee (1d10+3/19-20, unarmed strike); Full Atk +10/+5 melee (1d10+3/19-20, unarmed strike) or +10/+10/+5 melee (1d10+3/19-20, unarmed strike); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Avalanche, iron fist, ki strike (lawful, magic); SQ DR 3/-, evasion, slow fall 40 ft., wholeness of body; AL LN; SV Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +10; Str 17 (+2), Dex 12, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 11.

Feats: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (unarmed)*, Improved Unarmed Strike*, Indomitable (+2 vs. bull rush, overrun, trip), Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack*, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike).


Shadow Style monk: human male Mnk 10; HD 10d8+10; hp 55; Init +2; Spd 40 ft.; AC 19, touch 19, flat-footed 16; Base Atk +7; Grp +8; Atk +9 melee (1d10+1/x2, unarmed strike); Full Atk +9/+4 melee (1d10+1/x2, unarmed strike) or +9/+9/+4 (1d10+1/x2, unarmed strike); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Dazing blow, ki strike (lawful, magic), pain touch; SQ Evasion, slow fall 40 ft., wholeness of body; AL LN; SV Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +7; Str 13, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 17 (+2), Wis 11, Cha 10.

Feats: Combat Expertise*, Combat Reflexes*, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Finesse, Improved Unarmed Strike*, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (unarmed).


Wind Style monk: human male Mnk 10; HD 10d8+10; hp 55; Init +7; Spd 50 ft.; AC 20, touch 20, flat-footed 17; Base Atk +7; Grp +8; Atk +10 melee (1d10/x2, unarmed strike); Full Atk +10/+5 melee (1d10/x2, unarmed strike) or +10/+10/+5 (1d10/x2, unarmed strike); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Ki strike (lawful, magic); SQ Evasion, into thin air, slow fall 40 ft., wholeness of body; AL LN; SV Fort +5, Ref +10, Will +7; Str 12, Dex 17 (+2), Con 13, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 10.

Feats: Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Finesse, Improved Init., Mobility, Improved Unarmed Strike*, Spring Attack*, Weapon Finesse*


Analysis: At this point, the Mountain monk is falling behind, AC-wise, but a smart player would invest in a ring of protection or something similar; he can take the extra abuse and certainly put something down before it hurt him too badly. All the new monks are slower, to varying degrees, but their ABs and damage are the same, and ACs are generally higher. Since the new monks have a low save, I gave them +2 save feats to shore it up (except the Wind monk); with the feats, average saves are about 1 point lower. Ability-wise, I'd say the classes are still pretty even - the new monks have one fewer bonus feat (but they get more later) and get other abilities instead of improved evasion (except the Wind monk, who can choose it). Overall? Pretty close, balancewise.

Among the different styles, the Mountain monk is definitely dominant in combat, able to deal out and take large amounts of damage. The Wind monk's high AC and speed more than make up for the slight penalty to damage, and the Shadow monk still falls somewhere in between.[/sblock]


Level 15
[sblock]
Vanilla monk: human male Mnk 15; HD 15d8+15; hp 82; Init +7; Spd 80 ft.; AC 18, touch 18, flat-footed 15; Base Atk +11; Grp +12; Atk +14 melee (2d6+1/x2, unarmed strike); Full Atk +14/+9/+4 melee (2d6+1/x2, unarmed strike) or +11/+11/+11/+6/+1 melee (2d6+1/x2, flurry of blows); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Ki strike (lawful, magic), quivering palm; SQ Abundant step, diamond soul, evasion, improved evasion, purity of body, slow fall 70 ft., still mind, wholeness of body; AL LN; SV Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +11; Str 13, Dex 17 (+2), Con 12, Int 11, Wis 15 (+1), Cha 10.

Feats: Combat Reflexes*, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip*, Improved Unarmed Combat*, Mobility, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist*, Weapon Finesse.


Mountain Style monk: human male Mnk 15; HD 15d8+30; hp 107; Init +1; Spd 40 ft.; AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 14; Base Atk +11; Grp +14; Atk +14 melee (2d6+3/19-20, unarmed strike); Full Atk +14/+9/+4 melee (2d6+3/19-20, unarmed strike) or +14/+14/+9/+4 melee (2d6+3/19-20, unarmed strike); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Avalanche, iron fist, ki strike (lawful, magic), rapid flurry; SQ DR 4/-, earthsense, evasion, purity of body, slow fall 60 ft., wholeness of body; AL LN; SV Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +12; Str 17 (+2), Dex 12, Con 15 (+1), Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 11.

Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (unarmed)*, Improved Unarmed Strike*, Indomitable (+2 vs. bull rush, overrun, trip), Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack*, Stunning Fist*, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike).


Shadow Style monk: human male Mnk 15; HD 15d8+15; hp 82; Init +2; Spd 50 ft.; AC 21, touch 21, flat-footed 18; Base Atk +11; Grp +12; Atk +13 melee (2d6+1/x2, unarmed strike); Full Atk +13/+8/+3 melee (2d6+1/x2, unarmed strike) or +13/+13/+8/+3 (2d6+1/x2, unarmed strike); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Dazing blow, ki strike (lawful, magic), pain touch, rapid flurry, serpent strike, shadow strike; SQ Evasion, purity of body, slow fall 60 ft., wholeness of body; AL LN; SV Fort +9, Ref +11, Will +9; Str 13, Dex 15 (+1), Con 12, Int 17 (+2), Wis 11, Cha 10.

Feats: Blind-Fight*, Combat Expertise*, Combat Reflexes*, Dodge, Fighting Style Ability (shadow strike), Great Fortitude, Improved Finesse, Improved Unarmed Strike*, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (unarmed).


Wind Style monk: human male Mnk 15; HD 15d8+30; hp 107; Init +7; Spd 60 ft.; AC 23, touch 23, flat-footed 20; Base Atk +11; Grp +12; Grp +14; Atk +14 melee (2d6/x2, unarmed strike); Full Atk +14/+9/+4 melee (2d6/x2, unarmed strike) or +14/+14/+9/+4 melee (2d6/x2, unarmed strike); Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.; SA Ki strike (lawful, magic); whirlwind; SQ Evasion, into thin air, slow fall 40 ft., wholeness of body; AL LN; SV Fort +8, Ref +12, Will +10; Str 12, Dex 17 (+2), Con 14 (+1), Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 10.

Feats: Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Deflect Arrows*, Dodge, Improved Finesse, Improved Init., Mobility, Improved Unarmed Strike*, Spring Attack*, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse*


Analysis: At this point, the new monks are pulling ahead, power-wise. Vanilla monks have one extra attack in their flurry and are still ahead by 1 point in average saves, but damage is the same, and the new monks' Rapid Flurry (flurry as a standard action) more than makes up for the loss of a single attack. Add to that that ALL of them have a better flurry AB than the vanilla monk, and there's no contest. The only major advantages the vanilla monk has at this point, IMO, are SR and speed. The Mountain monk is strong enough to take the abuse, and the Wind monk is more than fast enough (and even has more hit points!) to handle a fight; the Shadow monk is nimble enough and can disable his opponents through special attacks or trips.[/sblock]