Projector suggestions?

[Thunderfoot]

Have done professional video set-ups and while darkness is preferable - it isn't always necessary. 2500 lumens is probably all you will need especially if you are only shooting approx. 4'. LED is preferable to standard incandescent lights for both longevity and heat dissipation. Yes, they may be a little more expensive to start but the savings over time is more than worth it.

And you are quiet correct, keystone correction is the most often found feature, but if you are shooting straight down on a rectangular surface, if your mounting job is done correctly - adjustments shouldn't be necessary. Keystone is usually used to make up the difference in angle caused when a projector is placed on a table and shot some distance away, causing the picture to tilt (making it look like a keystone).

And while you aren't mentioning it, let me say if you plan on hanging a projector, install a conduit to run your wires through if you are running your wires inside of the wall/ceiling. Not only will it make running the wires easier (even though the install is more work) but if you should ever have to replace it it will make your life much simpler (as well as being part of most building codes (an incorrect install can void your home owner's insurance.)

This is a very simple project and hopefully will enhance your gaming experience.

 

[mac1504]

Our group has been using a BenQ MP525P (short throw) projector for the last year. Half the time we play in basements that don't offer much overhead for the jib that one of our players created, but it works just fine.

One of the best investments our group ever made.

 

[OnlineDM]

I use the ViewSonic PJD5152 for my portable projector rig, and I've been very happy with it. I use it in a variety of lighting environments. I've had a little bit of trouble with dark colors on the map when there are bright lights in a store directly overhead (dark browns and dark grays have sometimes blended in with the black "fogged out" areas of the map), but that's the exception rather than the rule. At home, I use the projector at my dining room table with normal household lighting (windows in the room during daylight hours, a light fixture right over the table), and I've been totally happy with it.

This is a short-throw projector with 2500 lumens, and Amazon is selling it for $417.31 as I type this.

 

[Thraug]

Our group has been using a BenQ MP525P (short throw) projector for the last year. Half the time we play in basements that don't offer much overhead for the jib that one of our players created, but it works just fine.

One of the best investments our group ever made.

This stat page shows your projector can produce a max of a 18" x 25" image when the throw distance is 4'. If that's correct, it's quite a bit smaller than we were hoping to get. Can you confirm these numbers?

I'm considering this InFocus IN146 projector:

• Short-throw
• Brightness: 2700 ANSI
• Contrast: 3000:1
• It does have digital zoom (I checked the manual)
• Digital Keystone: Vertical
• Aspect Ratio: 16:10
• Native 1280x800 Pixels
• At 4' distance, it produces a image that's 99" x 62"! At 3' throw: 74" x 46"!
• $~775 street price. Higher than I was hoping but this looks like the Holy Grail for us.

It may throw TOO large a image??

 

[Steel_Wind]

I was wondering if anyone can suggest a (modern) projector that fits my needs:

• No more than $750
• Distance from the top of my table to the ceiling is 4'2", with maybe 1' of extra space above my drop ceiling where I can mount the projector
• I would like a display area of ~6' by ~4' (my gaming table is 8' x 6')
• It'll mostly be used to project (all sorts of) maps for RP games
• If it's possible, I would like to attach the projector to a mount that allows the projector to swivel 90 degrees so I can also project images onto my wall

I don't know where to begin.

Hi Thraug,

I was one of the first guys on ENWorld to start the projector craze six years ago. A lot has changed since then -- but a few things have not. Let me address your "want list" first, as there is one component of your list which is extremely unrealistic which needs addressing. After that requirement is dealt with -- I think the rest falls into line.

I would like a display area of ~6' by ~4' (my gaming table is 8' x 6')

Woah.

No, you don't want this. You just think you do. Let me show you why.

A 4x6 projection surface is 48" x 72". That's a total of 3,456 square inches in your projection surface. An XGA projector, which is about all you can afford in that price range, has a resolution of 1024x768 = 786,432 pixels.

By the time you spread 786,432 pixels over the screen real estate that is present in a 4x6 projection surface, your pixel density drops to 227 per sq. inch. That's 15 pixels high by 15 pixels wide per sq inch.

I'm not sure how old you are Thraug, but I'm guessing you are in your thirties or forties. If you are in your thirties, you might be too young to remember seeing a graphic image that is 15 pixels x 15 pixels, but if you are in your forties --you definitely have seen such a similar image before, because it only a tiny bit better in resolution height (and the exact same in resolution width) as this:

Whenever you spread your pixel density out over such a large projected surface, the detail drops like a rock. We don't notice this much when we are watching a movie or a TV show, because:

1 - We are sitting well back from the projected image. The recommended viewing distance for a 7' screen (and that's what a 4x6 image is, when measured on the diagonal) is about 11 feet+ away from the image; and

2- The human brain processes a moving image at 60 fps very, very, differently than it does a static one. The human eye evolved to catch the overall meaning of a moving image (prey or predator) and it tends to ignore the details. When you freeze frame that image? Different story. Then the human eye is all about detail -- and that's when the pixelation issues will crystallize into a big pile of "yuck".

End result: For purposes of a game table, you absolutely do not want an image which is 4'x6' (a 7 foot screen). It is way, way too large, the detail will be horrible and your pixelation is very close to approaching Space Invaders in terms of overall resolution.

I might add that by the time you have spread that many pixels out over that large a surface, you will also have a washed out image in terms of its brightness and contrast. You won't be happy with the brightness and contrast of the image, at all when viewed from a playing distance. So not only will the picture be pixelated all to hell -- it will be very dim, too. You won't like it.

So what I am saying is very simple: Thraug, you need to rethink your expectations here rather dramatically.

The Day of the Projector is Over

Now, with that out of the way, I will say this rather clearly. Notwithstanding the fact that I was one of the guys who started all of this, I am no longer recommending projectors to anyone for use with Tabletop RPGs. The day of the projector is over.

It isn't that the idea is a bad one, it's that the competing technologies have progressed to the point where buying a new projector no longer makes any sense.

What you should get, in my opinion, is a Samsung 5000 series LED flat panel 46" 1080p display.

That panel's image is frikkin GORGEOUS and the thickness of that unit is only 1.13", sitting on your gaming table. You'll want to raise it a little to provide for some air circulation and cooling, but trust me Thraug -- if you have $750 bucks to spend for a gaming projector? The Samsung 5000 series is what you want.

Page 2 of the thread here has my post concerning the Samsung 5000 as well as O'ryan's post where he shows the Samsung 5000 in action. O'Ryan's pics are not optimized to show off the max size of his new flat panel screen -- they are literally pics which were taken an hour or so after he got the unit home and out of the box.

They are, for all that, the most gorgeous pictures of this technology available for use with a tabletop RPG. Those pics are "state of the art" for RPG game tables right now. And the state of the art is that projectors are now passé.

Check out your local Best Buy for the Samsung 5000. Don't let the salesman try to upsell you on the newer 120 Hz models. The salesman is right -- for fast moving images, 120 Hz will result in a somewhat better image in movies with screeching car chases and fast action. If you want to see the best version of a Jason Bourne movie? 120Hz or 240 Hz will be better than 60 -- that much is true.

But for the primary purpose of a gaming flat panel? It will make ZERO difference, because our images aren't moving all that much.

And even so, let me tell you, my 60 Hz flat panel LCD is pretty awesome for movies already.

 

[Thraug]

Good stuff Steel_Wind, especially on pixel resolution. I considered TVs as a solution but leaned towards a projector for these reasons, mostly in order of importance:

• I really don't want to lose my existing table and room layout. The only practical option I would have is to create a TV frame that contains the TV and sits on top of my existing table. Not a great solution for us as I'd like to retain the option to play on our table (magnetic gridded battlemap) without having to tear down a TV setup.
• We want to be able to project an image onto a wall too, for gaming and movies. I've seen swivel mounts that will allow this.
• Some of our players our SUPER messy/careless (to put it kindly), and I'd have to encase the TV in a waterproof container to keep a 64oz flood from killing the TV. It'll happen no matter how often we try to enforce carefulness or ask to keep drinks off the f******ing table.
• Viewing angle. I'm not convinced a TV can be seen from a sitting, perpendicular position. I'd have to see it live to believe it's not a problem.
• I like how projectors cast an image onto 3d objects. We planned on using "blocks" where elevated terrain is (hills, upper floors, etc) to give it depth. Low priority for sure.

I may just go with a smaller image size for a projector. I'll think about TVs more but I don't see them working for us.

 

[Thraug]

I use the ViewSonic PJD5152 for my portable projector rig, and I've been very happy with it. I use it in a variety of lighting environments. I've had a little bit of trouble with dark colors on the map when there are bright lights in a store directly overhead (dark browns and dark grays have sometimes blended in with the black "fogged out" areas of the map), but that's the exception rather than the rule. At home, I use the projector at my dining room table with normal household lighting (windows in the room during daylight hours, a light fixture right over the table), and I've been totally happy with it.

This is a short-throw projector with 2500 lumens, and Amazon is selling it for $417.31 as I type this.

Thanks. I've been following your post on your blog. Going over them again today brings up a question on something you posted on your blog on Aug 12, 2020. you said your bowling bud helped you adjust the height and lens to get a crisper image. You then said " A higher resolution projector wouldn’t make any difference." Why is this? Unless I'm missing something, Steel_Wind claim a higher res projector would yield a less pixelated image. Am I missing something?

 

[OnlineDM]

My bowling friend thought that the problem was my software (MapTool) rather than my hardware. I don't actually know for sure - I didn't try any other hardware or software, and I ended up being perfectly happy with what I was using.

It's entirely possible that my bowling buddy was wrong and that a higher-resolution projector using the same software to project the same images would be significantly better. He works with projectors professionally, so I took his opinion at face value, but I honestly don't know for sure and I haven't done any experimenting to check his opinion.

For what it's worth, the only things that made me unhappy from a resolution perspective were the the monster token images. They're one-inch circles, and it's hard to see a lot of detail when projected onto the table.

What I ended up doing was having a little macro button to toggle the size of a token image from its native one-inch size (assuming a Medium creature) to a six-inch by six-inch size (Colossal) and then back again. When the group encounters a new monster, I display the one-inch image and then say, "This guy looks like THIS:" and then click the button to make it big. Oohs and aahs follow, after which I click the button again to shrink the image back to its regular size. Works like a charm.

 

[mac1504]

This stat page shows your projector can produce a max of a 18" x 25" image when the throw distance is 4'. If that's correct, it's quite a bit smaller than we were hoping to get. Can you confirm these numbers?

Sorry, I keep forgetting that our projector box has the wrong label on it. We are using the BenQ MP525ST.

 

[mac1504]

And here is a picture of the rig that one of the members of our group designed and built for elevating the projector above the playing table.