Prone & Kneeling

[Bob Mackenzie]

Ladies & Gents

Being a bit new to this Ive just noticed the penelties for hitting kneeling & prone targets with missile fire. This triggers a few thoughts.

-4 to hit a lying down crossbowman plus he/she still gets their dex bonus - very generous! At close range this seems a bit over powerful, after all from 10' away a standing archer will be able to see all the prone defender's body.

Having said that as it take a move equivalent action to get up you are in the s**t if some one with a sword reaches you. Mind you as getting up doesn't provoke an attack of oppertunity its not that dangerous

[oh and there is no indication in the PHB that this only applies to human shaped characters, so if a dragon layed on its belly and just used is breath weapon it would be -4 to hit (yes its too cheesy for words and I'd nevr do it)]

There are no rules for crawling in the PHB I'd suggest limiting it to the free 5' move

So kneeling is a compromise, -2 to hit. Unfortunately the PHB has no rules for going kneeling or rising afterwards


Comment's? Personally I'd ignore kneeling - give prone a -2 hit penalty and a AOO for getting up - after all you don't see many medieval etchings of prone crossbowmen!

Cheers

Bob

 

[Bob Mackenzie]

Another thought

Can you cas spells prone? If so I would have though you'd have seen many more lying down wizards

Cheers

Bob

 

[Lothar]

DOWN UP! DOWN UP!

I personally think that WOTC did prone rules and modifiers correctly. Of course, they could always clarify what denotes a "prone" position.

I consider any condition in which you are stationary and not supported solely by your legs "prone" with respect to combat modifiers. If you are climbing or riding, then you use those combat modifiers.

A prone crossbowman will have his head up, and his upper body will be supported by his elbows. He will not be flat on his back or stomach with his appendages flailing around like a turtle on his back. A crossbowman in the seated position would also be considered prone by D&D rules. A kneeling crossbowman would be considered standing, but a melee attacker would get a bonus to hit for being on higher ground. However, if he is kneeling and sitting, he would be prone.

Now, the only problem with the above is that it would be virtually impossible for a crossbowman in the classic "prone" position to reload his weapon without a winch. And that would require a full-round action to . And an archer 10 feet away from the prone crossbowman still doesn't see all of his vital areas. He might be limited to head, shoulders, and legs.

I will now address the issue of getting up or moving from prone. Anyone who has ever played organized football knows how easy it is to get up and move from prone. There is a practice drill called a "down-up" that every freshman masters his first week of football practice. You basically run in place until the coach instructs you to fall prone and get back up as fast as you can. It can easily be done in one second. So carefully (avoiding AoO)getting up in three seconds seems about right, if not conservative. Okay, one more football practice reference. There is another drill called a "bear crawl". This is where you run as fast as you can on your hands and feet. At my football practices, some people could bear crawl as fast as others could sprint. So my opinion is that crawling should be a move equivalent action at half-speed, with normal prone modifiers for attackers.

So just to summarize, I don't consider prone the same thing as lying down.

Edit: The above smilies replaced the word c-o-c-k. I can't think of any synonym for it, so I'll leave the smilies. I think Eric's Grandma's filters are working a little too hard.

 

[Stalker0]

IMC, I have you lose the dex bonus when your prone. To me, being prone is lying on your back or on your face.

the PH doesn't really discuss movement while prone, but I'd go with half movement, can't run or charge, and normal prone penalties.

 

[Bob Mackenzie]

IMC, I have you lose the dex bonus when your prone. To me, being prone is lying on your back or on your face.

I thought about that too - then figures a hero could wiggle or roll out of the way

I wonder how d20 modern deals with this after all neatly all modern infantry combat is performed on your belly

Cheers

Bob

 

[kreynolds]

I wonder how d20 modern deals with this after all neatly all modern infantry combat is performed on your belly

Prone: An attacker who is prone (lying on the ground) takes a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and can’t use bows or thrown ranged weapons. The character gains a +4 bonus to Defense against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to Defense against melee attacks.

 

[Legildur]

Just adding to what Kreynolds wrote, but the attack roll modifiers table in the PHB also has a footnote that states that crossbows can be fired from the prone position with no penalty - the medieval/fantasy equivalent to modern rifleman.

And BTW, modern combat shooting for infantryman, while predominantly conducted from prone, is practiced from all basic firing positions (prone, sitting, kneeling, standing) either supported (less common) or unsupported.

Prone is obviously superior at longer ranges, but where quick movement, fleeting targets, or significant cover/concealment close to the ground, then other positions (mainly kneeling) begin to be used.

 

[kreynolds]

Just adding to what Kreynolds wrote, but the attack roll modifiers table in the PHB also has a footnote that states that crossbows can be fired from the prone position with no penalty - the medieval/fantasy equivalent to modern rifleman.

The description of Prone in the DMG also states that, but he asked about D20 Modern. In D20 Modern, ranged weapons are dominant, so instead of listing what you can use, it's easier to list what you can't use.

 

[dkilgo]

I think that someone probably needs to create a chart listing the different firing positions. Prone, kneeling, standing, and sitting. All of these of course need to take into account whether they are supported, or unsupported.

 

[Aaron2]

I give shield users a bonus when kneeling. +1 shields go to +2 and +2 shields go to +4. I remember a picture from an old book I had that showed Roman soldier kneeling with their shields in front of them.


Aaron