Pronouns in D&D - How should gender be handled?

[Mallus]

I think cementing everyone's idea that he's some kind of flake may not constitute "getting away with it".

Dude, Prince can get away with almost anything. He's an incredibly talented artist who's also incredibly rich and still incredibly famous.

 

[gamerprinter]

I have no problems with alternating gender pronouns in publications, since most RPG publishers do this, it's a conformitive expectation - no reason not to conform.

That said, personally I find the entire notion of political correctness as kind of silly. I would never condone deliberate insensitivity done in a prejudicial way, however being forcibly 'sensitive' feels artificial to me.

Strange though, perhaps due to my lack of a wider reading material source, outside of RPGs I've never seen gender pronouns as ever being an issue. In other words, outside of RPG rule books, I've never seen a proactive effort to mix gender pronouns in any document or format done. Why force a new pronouns standard, when nobody else seems to be concerned? (I'm not saying doing so is wrong, it just seems odd that the RPG crowd is somehow more sensitive than everyone else...)

 

[Zhaleskra]

I do think political correctness has gone way too far. Wonder what it's going to do about the fact that I find easily offended people offensive? They didn't think of that loophole now did they?

 

[Janx]

Strange though, perhaps due to my lack of a wider reading material source, outside of RPGs I've never seen gender pronouns as ever being an issue. In other words, outside of RPG rule books, I've never seen a proactive effort to mix gender pronouns in any document or format done. Why force a new pronouns standard, when nobody else seems to be concerned? (I'm not saying doing so is wrong, it just seems odd that the RPG crowd is somehow more sensitive than everyone else...)

Fair point. Why is this an issue in RPGs, and not widely discussed in regular books?

I suspect that it is because RPGs are generally addressed to the reader and are about controlling an avatar in the game that represents the reader. So failing to recognize the gender variance in the audience (the reader) is a pretty big snub.

Conversely, reading a fiction book, it's written about the author's characters in first or third person. It's not sexist that the protagonist of the Dresden Files is a male. Consider however, that in works of fiction, authors have already been hammered on not having enough black people or strong female characters. The modern crop of authors seemed to have received and read the memo. I would suspect that THEY were the first in the writing industry to feel the pressures to change.

In non-fiction, I imagine any kind of how-to or self-help book might have a similar "talking to the reader" situation that RPGs have. As I don't think I've ever read any of those, I couldn't say what the current writing style is.

Otherwise, most non-fiction is in the relaying facts business, which is likely pretty cut and dried. President Kennedy was shot in 1963. The fact that he was male or got shot has little to do with sexism, as it is simply a fact of nature that his DNA defined him as a male. Somebody would have to go looking for trouble to argue with the author that his chapter on the known facts of JFK's assassination was written in a sexist or gender excluding way (or the author started some trouble)

 

[gamerprinter]

In non-fiction, I imagine any kind of how-to or self-help book might have a similar "talking to the reader" situation that RPGs have. As I don't think I've ever read any of those, I couldn't say what the current writing style is.

Actually I read a lot more non-fiction in the form of instruction manuals than anything else, and I've never seen gender pronouns even being introduced. That's why I mentioned the curiosity of it's presence in RPG books. In most non-RPG non-fiction manuals, gender pronouns aren't even considered. If the genderless 'they' aren't being used, 'he/his' still predominates non-fiction pronouns in everything except RPG manuals.

And it can't be because RPG'ers are more sensitive. You've never met my players, both male and female alike, they are the most insensitive people you're ever likely to meet.

Since I am currently writing a series of non-fiction instructional manuals (25 Quick & Dirty Map Tutorials Guides), in my work I feel I am instructing the reader as a student. So I use "you" and "your", not some hypothetical "he" or "she" as my preferred use of pronouns. I am teaching the reader directly, so I feel that's most appropriate.

 

[Random Bystander]

Actually I read a lot more non-fiction in the form of instruction manuals than anything else, and I've never seen gender pronouns even being introduced. That's why I mentioned the curiosity of it's presence in RPG books. In most non-RPG non-fiction manuals, gender pronouns aren't even considered. If the genderless 'they' aren't being used, 'he/his' still predominates non-fiction pronouns in everything except RPG manuals.

And it can't be because RPG'ers are more sensitive. You've never met my players, both male and female alike, they are the most insensitive people you're ever likely to meet.

Based on my admittedly-limited experience, I do not think that the engineering or hard science professions can be held up as a beacon of gender equality at this or most historical points.

 

[Janx]

Actually I read a lot more non-fiction in the form of instruction manuals than anything else, and I've never seen gender pronouns even being introduced. That's why I mentioned the curiosity of it's presence in RPG books. In most non-RPG non-fiction manuals, gender pronouns aren't even considered. If the genderless 'they' aren't being used, 'he/his' still predominates non-fiction pronouns in everything except RPG manuals.

Can you clarify these two seemingly contradictory statements in your post:

"I've never seen gender pronouns even being introduced"
"'he/his' still predominates non-fiction pronouns"

I would have interpreted the first statement to mean the non-fiction book features no use of "he, his, him" or "she,hers,her" as both are inherently gender pronouns.

But then you say "'he/his' still predominates non-fiction pronouns".

Is it possible that your example non-fiction book features "he, his, him" and you did not CONSIDER that to be usage of gender pronouns?

I really am just asking as you seem to already be in the camp of "let's just make the women happy" like me.

My reasoning is that I sense contradicting wording in the quoted paragraph, and as my last question indicates is exactly why women might object to only seeing male pronouns and men not getting why that is.

 

[gamerprinter]

Yes, I misspoke, I didn't mean genderless pronouns were predominant, rather the male gender pronoun only is predominant. What I meant was there is no consideration of gender, using only the old standard pronoun for everything (he/his). Not saying these are deliberately excluding female readers, rather no attempt is made to not seem exclusive at least reading the language used. As far as that goes, I've never seen 'genderless' pronouns used in anything, not even RPGs.

 

[Cadence]

Outside of RPGs, the APA Style Guide (one of the most widely used style guides for journal articles, textbooks, monographs, etc... in a variety of fields) specifically says to not use "he", "his", or "men" as generic terms applying to both sexes. When gender is uncertain it also specifically does not recommend "he or she", alternating between "he" and "she", or "s/he" because they're awkward. Their suggestions include recasting the sentence to be plural to enable use of "they" or "their" (as opposed to just using singular "they" which might not agree in number with the rest of the sentence) or rewriting to avoid the need to use a pronoun at all. https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/560/14/

So they don't seem to like any of the first three choices in the poll. But I don't think I've ever seen anything in APA style that is comparable to an RPG book with all of the examples and the like. (I'm trying to think of what would be an example of that.)

 

[Janx]

Yes, I misspoke, I didn't mean genderless pronouns were predominant, rather the male gender pronoun only is predominant. What I meant was there is no consideration of gender, using only the old standard pronoun for everything (he/his). Not saying these are deliberately excluding female readers, rather no attempt is made to not seem exclusive at least reading the language used. As far as that goes, I've never seen 'genderless' pronouns used in anything, not even RPGs.

Gotcha.

to sum up your observations outside of RPGs in non-fiction:

Nobody seems to use "they" or other truly genderless pronouns
every book seems to use "he" or other male pronouns

I think it is reasonable that just because a book only uses male pronouns, that does not mean the book or author is sexist/voicing a sexist position

So I doubt there's ill intent in these (or other) books.

The muddiness comes when somebody point out that a more inclusive practice exists, it is very risky to protest it.

I'm not sure why the non-fiction industry hasn't been hit by the "you're being sexist or exclusive" bug yet. But I did just think of a theory.

Pick up a how to book. Pick up an RPG book. Which book, or even which topic do you REALLY care about more. Enough to participate in online discussion forums, etc?

Odds are good, it's the RPG. There aren't fan sites for how to books. Other than the guy with a broken sink, nobody gives a rat's arse about Bob Villa's How To Fix a Broken Sink book enough to form a website discussing it, let alone discussing shortcomings in the writing style. It's a tool. Not a pastime or passion for anybody. Once steps 1-9 are completed, the sink is fixed, the book is closed, and no thought or recollection is given to "how come all the examples used the word "he" instead of referencing women who might also have broken sinks.