PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

[Corwin]

Yeah, I also think it's mainly a problem with Improved Metamagic.

Before Improved Metamagic even came out, there was the Incantatrix PrC from T&B.

As soon as one of our players started playing one, we quickly realized how "broken" that ability can be. So we house ruled a change.

Instead of reducing all metamagics by 1 (minimum 1). We changed it to total metamagics -1 (still minimum 1).

So a single Empower adds 1. Double Empower adds 3. Triple Empower is +5. Etc.

You net only an effective 1 point savings no matter what you apply.

When Improved Metamagic came out, we looked at it and all smiled, and agreed we'd do the same there.

Seems to work much better now.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Before Improved Metamagic even came out, there was the Incantatrix PrC from T&B.

FRCS, maybe. Not T&B. And at the risk of starting on this old theme again, FRCS is not exactly your one-stop shopping center for balanced rules.

 

[apsuman]

It's simple, really. IT'S BROKEN. Any Epic Level Wizard with Empower Spell and Improved Spell Capacity can SLAUGHTER literally ANYBODY in one or two hits using Empower Spell with Vampiric Touch and/or Horrid Wilting.

IT'S BROKEN.

VERY VERY VERY BROKEN.

A Level 40 Wizard could obliterate a Level 80 Fighter with NO DIFFICULTY if Empower Spell is allowed to stack on top of itself. I think I've proven my point.

Well, no. Not really. How could a level 40 wizard obliterate a level 80 fighter with no difficulty?

I really don't care what the designers say about stacking Empower Spell, they OBVIOUSLY NEVER play-tested that, at least not at higher levels, so it turns out that they made a HUGE mistake saying that it was allowed.

This is even more broken than Harm!

Want more proof?

Well, some would be nice.

If the only thing you can pull out is a god going up against a level 30ish NPC then you really don't have any PROOF. Especially if Orcus is played like an INT 6 Barbarian that casts spells.



g!

 

[Corwin]

FRCS, maybe. Not T&B.

Ack. My bad. That's what I get for posting when I don't have my books with me to check things like that.

Oh well. Point still stands. Our house rule was a good fix for us.

 

[drnuncheon]

Round 1: Xun Huo (always hasted) runs up, attacks using Iaijutsu Focus. Orcus hastes himself and summons a balor. Balor tries to full attack and misses.

Round 2: Xun Huo uses a Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x11] to suck out ALL of the balor's power, killing it instantly, then casts Destroy on Orcus for 39 damage. Orcus tries to attack and fails, then forgets Xun Huo is a GOD and tries energy drain, which also fails.

What CR is Orcus, anyway? Where are the stats for him? If he's not CR 60 or so, of *course* a 40th level Divine Rank 2 creature is going to wipe the floor with him. That's like saying Weapon Specialization plus Great Cleave is broken because it lets you go through kobolds like a lawnmower - of course you can, they're not meant to be a significant challenge at that level.

How do you get CR 34 out of a 40th level wizard (CR 40) plus divine ranks? I don't own Deities and Demigods but I find it hard to believe that divine ranks would actually reduce your CR...

Round 3: Xun Huo casts a Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x14] for over 800 damage, then casts a Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x9] to finish him off, obliterating him.

I get 457 hp average for the vampiric touch. Enhance adds only 5d6 to the vampiric touch, because it's 1d6 per two caster levels. That gives you 90+105d6 damage - not even enough to get 800 on a maximum roll.

Shouldn't Orcus have some spell resistance, by the way? Admittedly, with more than a +40 to your caster level check you are likely to blow through it, but it ought to be considered.

I also note that your magic item prices are way, way off - I checked only the spikard, but a +40 to one skill costs 320,000gp (enhancement bonuses of greater than +30 are epic, and x10 cost). Remember to *double* the cost of everything after the first magical property (DMG 246, Adding New Abilities) - so the +40 to the skills costs almost 3 million gp alone, and that's without adding in the permanent spell effects or the Spell Resistance.

So basically you've proven that Empower Spell (plus extra magic items plus Divine rank plus epic levels) lets you wipe out a significantly weaker foe (who had apparently been feebleminded judging from his behavior) much faster than she otherwise could. Um, congratulations?

Regarding epic spells vs. metamagiced regular spells: yes, your empowered horrid wilting can beat a Destroy. On the other hand, the wizard with Epic Spellcasting had to spend a total of one (1) feat on it, while you spent...well, I have no idea how you got 19th level spells, but normally that'd cost 10 feats, plus your 3 improved metamagics, plus your empower, plus your maximize, plus your enhance...so what did the guy with Epic Spellcasting do with his other 15 feats? You need to consider that when comparing the two...

J

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I rate this troll an 'A-'. The minus for all those caps.

The giveaway is you have Orcus forget he is fighting a god is rather too fabulously stupid to believe. But that is really just a feint to distract us from the fact that Orcus conveniently stand around two rounds gettting beat up without bothering to do anything useful. Not bad that.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

As others have mentioned, this is a horrible example and doesn't really prove or disprove anything about the Empower Spell feat.

 

[AuraSeer]

Apparently the troll-- er, I mean the OP-- forgot to mention that Orcus got hit with Feeblemind in round 0, and that's why he was so stupid. I mean really, summoning a CR 18 Balor to help against a diety? Who does that? That's like a casting Summon Monster I when you're fighting a great wyrm.

 

[kreynolds]

That's like a casting Summon Monster I when you're fighting a great wyrm.

That's a bad thing? Hmm...maybe that explains why I keep getting my a$$ kicked.

 

[gamecat]

damn kreynolds. Where does post 4000 go?