PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

[kreynolds]

damn kreynolds. Where does post 4000 go?

I guess it goes right here.

 

[Al]

If you want us to take this thread seriously, you should probably post stats for Orcus.

At the moment, your analysis is very fatally flawed.

Doesn't Orcus have SR?
Doesn't Vampiric Touch have a touch attack?
Doesn't Horrid Wilting have a Fort save?
Doesn't Orcus have a double-digit Intelligence score?

As for Empower beating any Epic Spell Period, I beg to differ. For one, anyone with Hide Life will laugh as you hit him with 99999999999999 points of damage, so Empower won't help you no matter how silly the numbers are. Epic Spells can be easily used to pump up DCs. Take Slay, slap on 10000XP burn and 100d6 backlash (no problem due to Hide Life), and boost the save DC by 100. That is in an epic spell.

 

[Metalsmith]

It's simple, really. IT'S BROKEN. Any Epic Level Wizard with Empower Spell and Improved Spell Capacity can SLAUGHTER literally ANYBODY in one or two hits using Empower Spell with Vampiric Touch and/or Horrid Wilting.

If anybody can offer ANY counter-proof that shows Empower Spell to not be broken, let them speak now.

EEECHHH!

His whole post reads like that crazy

Time Cube Website.

Really Empower spell is NAZI Like EVIL and EDUCATORS ARE EVIL FoR No UnDerStAnDiNg EMPOWER SPELL!! Listen to ME cause I'M Using CAPITAL Letters and Own a PET Tarantula. EMPOWER spell OWNS you! Let THEM speak NOW!! PRONOUNCE you Man and Wife!!


Metalsmith

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Oh, by the way, admidst all this talk about Maximized, Empowered spells, you are remembering that metamagic effects apply separately to the base spell, right? So a Maximized, Empowered spell (for example) does (maximum normal damage) + 0.5 x (normally rolled damage), not 1.5 x (maximum normal damage).

This gets to be a pretty significant difference once you Empower a half-dozen times or so.

 

[Jalkain]

Re: Re: PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

EEECHHH!

His whole post reads like that crazy

Time Cube Website.

Really Empower spell is NAZI Like EVIL and EDUCATORS ARE EVIL FoR No UnDerStAnDiNg EMPOWER SPELL!! Listen to ME cause I'M Using CAPITAL Letters and Own a PET Tarantula. EMPOWER spell OWNS you! Let THEM speak NOW!! PRONOUNCE you Man and Wife!!


Metalsmith

Wow! Just read the Time Cube home page for the first time, and it changed my life. I don't think I will ever stop laughing!

Fave quote:

'There is no God in 2 x 4x4
femininity and masculinity
2 sex Cube hemispheres, as
life is a 2-Cube crap-game. '

My search for a new sig. is finally over!

 

[Anubis]

Anubis, I know that you personally have a beef with Empower stacking with itself, and yes, it is powerful and makes some other feats obsolete, but I still believe that by the *rules* it's allowed. You make a very good case for a *house rule* to ban it from a game, but in my opinion that's what it is - a house rule.

IceBear

Well of course! Don't get me wrong, I do realize that it IS allowed, according to the designers, even though the book and the errata don't really say so.

Either way, I'm not contesting it being a rule now.

I'm saying the rule is very bad and that Empower Spell is very broken.

If a house rule is needed, so be it. Perhaps a better idea would be to hammer this fact into the heads of the designers so that they can change it.

 

[Anubis]

Yeah, I also think it's mainly a problem with Improved Metamagic.

Also in your example, Orcus seemed completely outmatched anyways, he didn't even hit once, did stupid actions, so he deserved to die this way or any other.

And why is Destroy an epic spell? Looks more like a 7th level spell to me (well except for the range maybe).
Isn't it possible to metamagic those epic spells as well?

Oh, and you didn't even try the Enhanced, Maximized, 14x Empowered Flame Arrow, that already has a base damage of 40d6 (not bad for a 3rd level spell ).

I don't know what Enhance does (don't have the ELH yet), but even without that, just Maximized and 14x Empowered it would deal 1220 damage on average on a failed save. Add whatever Enhance does to it, and the damage might become pretty obscene!

Bye
Thanee

Flame Arrow doesn't do 40d6 damage, it does 4d6 damage.

Regardless, I like non-elemental spells. Especially when fighting demons.

 

[Anubis]

Let's see:

You fought against the Creature Catalog Orcus. He obviously uses none of the options presented in D&DG and ELH. That could be regarded as a problem.

Iaijutsu Focus. I think it's rather powerful, and I would be cautious using it.

Orcus forgets that his opponent is a deity?

19th level spell slots. Anything that uses such a spell slot is likely to be powerful.

Plus, you're a god with the Divine Spellcasting SDA and a truly high Int. A mortal spellcaster would have to burn 10 feats for the spell slots alone.

Finally, you are effectively a 48th level character against a 32 CR NPC.

Iaijutsu Focus was NOTHING in this battle.

You're missing the point, however. Even without Divine Spellcasting, this chick can blow lots of stuff apart with little effort, all due to Empower Spell.

The point is that even a 19th level spell should NOT be doing enough damage to kill even a Greater Deity in a single hit. (That Horrid Wilting does 1300+ damage, Boccob has less then 1000 HP.)

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

Oh sure, talk in capitals and we'll believe you.

I've heard the same thing about nearly everything - it's broken because in just the right circumstances it's powerful. In fact, it wasn't that long ago that the theory in the vogue was that Improved Metamagic was much weaker than Automatic Quicken Spell and Multispell!

The problem with Empower Spell is that the DC is too easy. A x9 Empowered horrid wilting has a DC in the mid-20s - easy to save against (not to mention Mettle-able).

What about just taking the Int feat for more spells and better DCs? Surely someone finds that broken...

You fail to reaize that very few people have Mettle (Templars only) and that at very high levels, save almost never miss to begin with, making the DC a moot point.

Regardless, Vampiric Touch doesn't get a saving throw, AND it gives the user HP! And how often does an Epic Character miss a TOUCH ATTACK?! Please . . .

At high levels, save DCs are nothing because everything wil be saved against anyway.

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

Well, no. Not really. How could a level 40 wizard obliterate a level 80 fighter with no difficulty?

Well, how about the fact that the Level 80 Fighter would only have about 1000 HP, and could be taken out in one to three hits by the Level 40 Wizard, whereas the Level 80 Fighter would have to hit probably 20+ times to kill the Level 40 Wizard.

Well, some would be nice.

If the only thing you can pull out is a god going up against a level 30ish NPC then you really don't have any PROOF. Especially if Orcus is played like an INT 6 Barbarian that casts spells.

Actually, the way Orcus acted was a moot point, because going back over the fight, I saw that since Xun Huo won initiative, she could have killed him in a single hit with that Horrid Wilting.