PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

[James McMurray]

Dr_Rictus: There's always room for other interpretations. All you have to do is completely ignore the rules themselves, and ten you are free to interpret things however you want.

 

[Uller]

Uhm... you only multiply the variable portion of the die, not the fixed portion.

It multilies variable effects. If damage is variable, it multiplies the damage by 1.5. So the damage of a missile from a twice empowered magic missile is (1d4+1) X 2 for each individual missile. Your arguement holds up if the damage is broken down into different effects...like if a hypothetical holy bolt spell does 1d4 holy damage + 1 fire damage per bolt, then maybe you would only multiply the damage...

An empowered sleep spell would increase the hit dice affected. So a 3X empowered sleep would affect 2d4 X 2.5 hit dice of creatures, but would still not affect anything with more than 4 HD.

 

[KarinsDad]

It multilies variable effects. If damage is variable, it multiplies the damage by 1.5.

Thanks for the clarification.

I stand corrected.

I was always reading it as "variable, numeric portion of the effect" which is obviously incorrect.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

And don't forget the relatively easy to get (for an epic character) Ring of Spell Turning. Its a shme that poor wizard just got nuked by his own super-powerful Horrid Wilting.

Can always lead with a quickened disjunction (I'd be surprised if Epic characters even have many magic items). While Horrid Wilting would be turned, Meteor Swarm would not be.

I'm still leaning toward "empower is ok". I'm even leaning a little toward IMM is ok as well. I had to *really* twink out this wizard to do this. Not to mention it may just be easier to take Heighten Spell and hit the fighter with a high level dominate spell.

Some other examples of empower spell + IMM....

13th: empowered x10 fireball (10d6 + 500% = 35 * 6 = 210 avg damage, 105 for half)
15th: empowered x8 delayed fireball (20d6 + 400% = 70 * 5 = 350 avg, 175 for half).
15th: empowered x6 meteor swarm (24d6 + 300% = 84 * 4 = 336, no save)

 

[Shalewind]

I was always reading it as "variable, numeric portion of the effect" which is obviously incorrect.

You don't program by chance, do you?

A balor has 110 hp, so that is EASILY enough.

A basic Balor has 110hp. Basic. Balors can advance too. And to repeat the point, Orcus has far better minions to be tossing around than some poor Balor. At least he should in any Epic Campaign.

 

[Anubis]

Okay, you want a better example, I'll give you one!

Let's take the Level 30 NPCs from the ELH, both the Wizard and the Fighter!

First, lets replace the Wizard's "Brew Potion" with "Empower Spell" and then replace the Wizard's "Epic Spell Penetration" with "Improved Metamagic" . . . This is so the Wizard has the feats to demonstrate my point.

The Fighter needs no changes.

Now, let's look at an average fight between these two.

Initiative: Fighter +4, Wizard +8, the Wizard will, on average, go first.

Round 1:

Wizard casts Haste on himself and approaches within melee range of Fighter. Partial action, Wizard casts Vampiric Touch [Maximize, Empower x8]; on average, Wizard will get through Blink easily enough, and on average, Wizard will score a hit with a touch attack against AC 16; on average, Fighter will take 200 damage {60 (6*10, Maximize) + (3.5*10/2)*8 = 200}; Fighter is down to 75 HP, Wizard is up to 338 HP.

Figher uses Boots of Speed to Haste himself. Partial action, Fighter attacks; on average, Fighter will easily hit AC 32; on average, Wizard will take 20 damage; Wizard is down to 318 HP.

Round 2:

Wizard casts Power Word, Kill (casting on the defensive); Fighter is killed instantly; Fighter dies, Wizard wins.



Okay, does THIS satisfy you all? Empower Spell stacking is what allowed Wizard to cut Fighter down to so few HP that he killed him with Power Word, Kill. Of course, Fighter could have had over 500 HP to start, and the outcome would've been the same, because the Wizard could have used another Vampiric Touch, Horrid Wilting, and/or Meteor Swarm to take out Fighter in Round 2 with NO DIFFICULTY.

In other words, a SQUASH, all due to Empower Spell. With PCs, it would have been even worse!

There, a real example with reaonable factors!

 

[KarinsDad]

You don't program by chance, do you?

Yup.

 

[Anubis]

By the way, I am no longer contesting whether or not Empower Spell is allowed by the rules, I'm trying to offer proof that it's BROKEN if allowed.

Showing that it SHOULDN'T be allowed.

 

[James McMurray]

First, lets replace the Wizard's "Brew Potion" with "Empower Spell" and then replace the Wizard's "Epic Spell Penetration" with "Improved Metamagic" . . . This is so the Wizard has the feats to demonstrate my point.

Shouldn't we then change the fighter as well? Perhaps giving him more useful feats (devestating and Overwhelming Criticl are useless when you've got a Vorpal Blade). Perhaps Spellcasting Harrier to make those spells a bit more difficult to cast? And then maybe Epic Weapon Specialization?

Now, let's look at an average fight between these two.

Initiative: Fighter +4, Wizard +8, the Wizard will, on average, go first.

True

Round 1:

Wizard casts Haste on himself and approaches within melee range of Fighter. Partial action, Wizard casts Vampiric Touch [Maximize, Empower x8]; on average, Wizard will get through Blink easily enough, and on average, Wizard will score a hit with a touch attack against AC 16; on average, Fighter will take 200 damage {60 (6*10, Maximize) + (3.5*10/2)*8 = 200}; Fighter is down to 75 HP, Wizard is up to 338 HP.

On average the wizard will bypass Blink? How do you figure? Blink is a 50% miss chance. To better reflect the miss chance, divide the wizard's damage in half. In fact, to better reflect the damage dealt by both combatants you should calculate average damage dealt.

Figher uses Boots of Speed to Haste himself. Partial action, Fighter attacks; on average, Fighter will easily hit AC 32; on average, Wizard will take 20 damage; Wizard is down to 318 HP.

Actually, if the fighter had just gotten dropped to 75 hit points in one round, wouldn't he use his Helm of Teleportation to escape? Even if he doesn't want to do that he could instead full attack. All attacks hit (the last one would only miss on a 4 or less). He deals 5.5 + 5 (weapon) +6 (Spec. and Epic Spec.) + 13 (Strength) on each attack. Granted, that's only a total of 118 damage, not enough to killl the wizard. However, if he manages to crit with any of those attacks (a 80% probablity with 4 attacks) the wizard is dead.

Round 2:

Wizard casts Power Word, Kill (casting on the defensive); Fighter is killed instantly; Fighter dies, Wizard wins.

If the fighter is still there and the wizard's head is still attached.

Okay, does THIS satisfy you all? Empower Spell stacking is what allowed Wizard to cut Fighter down to so few HP that he killed him with Power Word, Kill. Of course, Fighter could have had over 500 HP to start, and the outcome would've been the same, because the Wizard could have used another Vampiric Touch, Horrid Wilting, and/or Meteor Swarm to take out Fighter in Round 2 with NO DIFFICULTY.

In other words, a SQUASH, all due to Empower Spell. With PCs, it would have been even worse!

There, a real example with reaonable factors!

Again, if you insist on giving the wizards' foes your seemingly hampered intellect rather than the battle savvy a epic level combatant should have, your champions will win every time.

 

[AuraSeer]

In other words, a SQUASH, all due to Empower Spell.

Not so.

As has been pointed out before (multiple times, in this thread and others), you're not really pointing out a problem with Empower. Your l33t killer move is based on the combination of Empower Spell and Improved Metamagic. The latter feat is the real culprit.

When the ELH designers created Improved Metamagic, they failed to consider its effect on multiply-meta'd spells. Any time you have 9 metamagic feats on one spell, Improved Meta basically lets you get 9 spell levels for free instead of one, and that's what's overpowering. (Would you still consider that Maximized 8xEmpowered Vampiric Touch so overpowering if it were 8 levels higher?)

If it bothers you so very much, use the house rule that Improved Meta only applies once per spell, instead of once per feat applied. Hopefully that'll come out as something official, but if not, that's why rule 0 was invented.