PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

[Thanee]

@KarinsDad: I definitely know, where you are coming from, since I'm also quite involved in mathematics, and your view is (or is that was?) mathematically sound and correct. However, the rules are no strict mathematic system and I see it exactly like Uller clarified above. A Magic Missile has a variable effect, resulting in 2-5 per missile. This variable effect is multiplied by 1.5. Well I guess I didn't have to reiterate that now, but still...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Anubis]

Shouldn't we then change the fighter as well? Perhaps giving him more useful feats (devestating and Overwhelming Criticl are useless when you've got a Vorpal Blade). Perhaps Spellcasting Harrier to make those spells a bit more difficult to cast? And then maybe Epic Weapon Specialization?



True



On average the wizard will bypass Blink? How do you figure? Blink is a 50% miss chance. To better reflect the miss chance, divide the wizard's damage in half. In fact, to better reflect the damage dealt by both combatants you should calculate average damage dealt.



Actually, if the fighter had just gotten dropped to 75 hit points in one round, wouldn't he use his Helm of Teleportation to escape? Even if he doesn't want to do that he could instead full attack. All attacks hit (the last one would only miss on a 4 or less). He deals 5.5 + 5 (weapon) +6 (Spec. and Epic Spec.) + 13 (Strength) on each attack. Granted, that's only a total of 118 damage, not enough to killl the wizard. However, if he manages to crit with any of those attacks (a 80% probablity with 4 attacks) the wizard is dead.

First off, is the answer to ALL of my agruments gonna be "he'll teleport out of there to escape"? I should just change my argument to "Wizards stacking Empower Spell will always win battles." Why? Causing the enemy to reatreat is a victory, or have you forgotten?

By the way, you SEVERELY miscaculated on the chance of a critical. You added them together! On average, you must take the AVERAGE. One does NOT have an 80% chance to pull off a critical hit just because they have four attacks with a 20% chance. It would be mroe like a 35% chance, statistically speaking.

 

[Enkhidu]

If I may make a suggestion...

In each of the examples Anubis uses, the wizard in question has used a combination of Empower and Improved MetaMagic to decimate a high HP foe. His argument is therefore that Empower is overpowered.

What would the numbers be like if Improved Metamagic were taken out of the equation?

I wish I had the materials here at work to run these numbers, but sadly I don't - anyone care to work them up?

 

[Dr_Rictus]

In fact, to better reflect the damage dealt by both combatants you should calculate average damage dealt.

Nah, the average damage given the miss chance is a poor statistic because it's the one situation you're basically sure doesn't apply. There aren't going to be enough events for it to average out.

50% chance, the wizard ends up with a bunch of the fighter's hit points and can (sort of) stand up to his counterattack, 50% chance he doesn't and is killed by the fighter trivially.

By the way, should the fighter be taking a miss chance for his blink, or is his vorpal sword also ghost touch or something?

However, if he manages to crit with any of those attacks (a 80% probablity with 4 attacks) the wizard is dead.

With 4 attacks each having a 20% chance to critical, the chance that at least one of them does so is actually about 59%. Which is more comfortable for the wizard, but still not exactly cozy.

So, for the wizard to survive, he has to hit the fighter (50% chance) and not be decapitated by any of the counterattacks (41% chance). So there's about a 20% chance he even gets as far as his attempt to power word, kill the fighter.

Which, I might point out, kind of counts on him (A) getting the fighter to below 100 hit points (likely, but not guaranteed just by the fact that average damage would do it), and (B) knowing that the fighter is at under 100 hit points, which is actually something he is obliged to guess about. He only has to roll a 28 or less on his 10d6 and the fighter is left with more than 100 hit points. This is actually a pretty good bet for the wizard (about 90%).

So, offhand, it looks like the wizard's chance of succeeding with this strategy, given all of the independent factors that could go wrong, is in the neighborhood of 18%

 

[TiQuinn]

It's simple, really. IT'S BROKEN. Any Epic Level Wizard with Empower Spell and Improved Spell Capacity can SLAUGHTER literally ANYBODY in one or two hits using Empower Spell with Vampiric Touch and/or Horrid Wilting.

IT'S BROKEN.

VERY VERY VERY BROKEN.

A Level 40 Wizard could obliterate a Level 80 Fighter with NO DIFFICULTY if Empower Spell is allowed to stack on top of itself. I think I've proven my point.

I really don't care what the designers say about stacking Empower Spell, they OBVIOUSLY NEVER play-tested that, at least not at higher levels, so it turns out that they made a HUGE mistake saying that it was allowed.

This is even more broken than Harm!

Want more proof? Observe my battle with Orcus . . . Xun Huo, DvR 2 Demigod, Level 40 Wizard vs. Orcus . . .

First, her stats:

Xun Huo
Goddess of the Arcane, Lady Sorceress, Mana Warlord
Demigod
Symbol: Crossed staves on top of an eye with a katana going through the middle
Home Plane: Prime Plane
Alignment: Neutral
Portfolio: Magic, Knowledge
Worshippers: Wizards, sorcerers, philosophers, sages, politicians, tacticians, artisans
Cleric Alignments: CN, LN, N, NG, NE
Domains: Magic, Knowledge, War
Favored Weapon: Katana

Xun Huo, Goddess of Magic: Female Demigod Wiz40; DvR 2; CR 34; Medium-Size Outsider; HD 40d4+680; hp 840; Init +17; Spd 60 ft.; AC 51 (touch 49, flat-footed 38); Atk +58/+53 melee (1d10+15/19-20/x2 crit, katana) or +70 ranged (1d8+15/19-20/x2 crit, light crossbow); SA Domain powers, salient divine abilities, spell-like abilities; SQ Summon familiar (toad), immunities, DR 37/+4, fire resistance 22, godly realm, teleport without error at will, familiar (felines), divine aura 20 ft. (DC 26); SR 50; AL N; SV Fort +60, Ref +56, Will +60; Str 30, Dex 30 (36), Con 32 (44), Int 37 (49), Wis 32, Cha 26 (38). 5'5", 121 lb., Com 85.

Skills and Feats: Concentration +102, Craft (weaponsmithing +66, Gather Information +27, Knowledge (politics) +64, Knowledge (war) +64, Knowledge (arcana) +104, Spellcraft +104, Knowledge (planes) +57, Iaijutsu Focus +72, Tumble +71, Jump +26, Balance +29, Diplomacy +28; Scribe Scroll, Improved Initiative, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana), Weapon Focus (katana), Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Forge Ring, Energy Substitution (acid), Energy Admixture (acid), Improved Spell Capacity, Spell Mastery, Epic Spellcasting, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, Improved Metamagic, Improved Metamagic, Improved Metamagic, Forge Epic Ring, Magical Artisan (forge epic ring), Efficient Item Creation (forge epic ring), Enhance Spell, Multispell, Intensify Spell.

Salient Divine Abilities: Arcane Mastery, Divine Spellcasting, Divine Blast.

Possessions: Souldrinker Blade {Souldrinker Katana}, Light Crossbow +10 of Acidic Splash, 50 Crossbow Bolts +5, Robe of Protection {Robe of Armor +10, Resistance +5}, Xun Huo's Outfit, Heward's Handy Haverack, Portable Hole, Rod of the Epic Spellcaster, Staff of Rapid Barrage (50), Brooch of Dumb Luck +20 {+20 luck bonus to saves}, Martial Vest +20 {+20 luck bonus to attack}, Headband of Epic Intellect +12, Boots of Swiftness, Bracers of Epic Health +12, Cloak of Epic Charisma +12, Ring of Elemental Immunity (sonic), Spikard {described below}. 328,970 gp, 5 sp. Load: 40 lbs.

Epic Spells: Peripety, Epic Mage Armor, Destroy {descibed below}, Mass Frog, Verdigris, Superb Dispelling, Explodet {descibed below}, Epic Counterspell, Epic Spell Reflection, Hellball, Kinetic Control.

Spell Prepared (4/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/5/5/5/5/3/3/3/3): [Base DC 27]; 0--Daze (4); 1--Magic Missile (9); 2--Magic Missile [Empower] (9); 3--Fireball (3), Slow (3), Vampiric Touch (3); 4--Fireball [Maximize] (4), Vampiric Touch [Maximize] (4); 5--Cone of Cold (4), Fireball [Enhance, Maximize] (4); 6--Disintegrate (8); 7--Finger of Death (2), Fireball [Enhance, Energy Admixture (acid), Maximize, Empower] (3), Cone of Cold [Enhance, Maximize] (3); 8--Cone of Cold [Enhance, Energy Admixture (acid), Maximize] (2), Fireball [Enhance, Energy Admixure (acid), Maximize, Empower x2] (3), Horrid Wilting (2); 9--Horrid Wilting [Maximize] (3), Meteor Swarm (4); 10--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize] (2), Meteor Swarm [Maximize] (3), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x5] (2); 11--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower] (2), Magic Missile [Maximize, Empower x9] (2), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x6] (3); 12--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x2] (2), Magic Missile [Maximize, Empower x10] (1), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x7] (2); 13--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x3] (2), Meteor Swarm [Intensify] (1), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x8] (2); 14--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x4] (3), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x9] (2); 15--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x5] (2), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x10] (3); 16--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x6] (2), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x11] (1); 17--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x7] (1), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x12] (2); 18--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x8] (2), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x13] (1); 19--Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x9] (1), Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x14] (2); Epic--Destroy (4), Epic Mage Armor (1), Explodet (2), Kinetic Control (3).

Spikard: SR 50, +5 resistance bonus to save, +5 deflection bonus to AC, "Haste" continuous, "Fly" continuous, Spellcraft +40, Knowledge (arcana) +40, Concentration +40, Iaijutsu Focus +40, Tumble +40. GP Value: 1,360,000.

Destroy:
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 49
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 12,000 ft.
Target: One creature, or up to a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 441,000 gp; 9 days; 17,640 XP. Seed: destroy (DC 29). Factor: 1-action casting time (+20 DC).

The target of this spell explodes, taking 20d6 points of damage. If the target is reduced to -10 hit points or less (or a construct, object, or undead is reduced to 0 hit points), it is utterly destroyed as if disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust.

Explodet:
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 69
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 12,000 ft.
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Spell Resistance: Yes
To Develop: 621,000 gp; 13 days; 24,840 XP. Seed: destroy (DC 29). Factors: 1-action casting time (+20 DC), change target to area of 20-ft. spread (+10 DC), increase damage die to d8 (+10 DC).

This spell causes a massive explosion, dealing 20d8 points of damage to everything within the area. Those reduced to -10 hit points or less (or constructs, objects, or undead reduced to 0 hit points) are utterly destroyed as if disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust.

Round 1: Xun Huo (always hasted) runs up, attacks using Iaijutsu Focus. Orcus hastes himself and summons a balor. Balor tries to full attack and misses.

Round 2: Xun Huo uses a Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x11] to suck out ALL of the balor's power, killing it instantly, then casts Destroy on Orcus for 39 damage. Orcus tries to attack and fails, then forgets Xun Huo is a GOD and tries energy drain, which also fails.

Round 3: Xun Huo casts a Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x14] for over 800 damage, then casts a Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x9] to finish him off, obliterating him.

Now, the battle:

Round 1: Xun Huo (always hasted) runs up, attacks using Iaijutsu Focus. Orcus hastes himself and summons a balor. Balor tries to full attack and misses.

Round 2: Xun Huo uses a Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x11] to suck out ALL of the balor's power, killing it instantly, then casts Destroy on Orcus for 39 damage. Orcus tries to attack and fails, then forgets Xun Huo is a GOD and tries energy drain, which also fails.

Round 3: Xun Huo casts a Vampiric Touch [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x14] for over 800 damage, then casts a Horrid Wilting [Enhance, Maximize, Empower x9] to finish him off, obliterating him.

If that doesn't do it for you, just check now the fact that any spell with enough Empower Spell stacked on top of it will beat ANY Epic Spell PERIOD. My Horrid Wilting does over 1300 poinds of damage, whereas Destroy can only do 120 MAXIMUM.

If anybody can offer ANY counter-proof that shows Empower Spell to not be broken, let them speak now.

You have 40th level characters running around?

 

[Al]

That's probably the most abusive I can be (at least right now) with Empower

Tragically not. The most abusive is to add it to the most powerful assault spell in the game: Time Stop.

So an Empoweredx9 Time Stop (instead of Meteor Swarm or Empoweredx10 Horrid Wilting) effective multiplies (d4+1) by 5. On average rolls, you have 17.5 rounds of smackdown time.

In that amount of time, the wizard could kill the fighter using Magic Missiles alone (some of them would need to be Quickened, but not many).

That is the most abusive use of Empower Spell, and it demonstrates why Empower should not stack with itself very elegantly, no?

 

[AuraSeer]

Oh joy, a probability argument.

If the fighter's weapon has a threat range of 17-20, he has a 20% chance to threaten. For the fighter to not threaten at all in the round, he must fail to threaten with each of his four attacks.

The probability that he fails to threaten on one attack is 80%. The probability that he fails four times in a row is (0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8), or 0.4096, or 41%. So assuming any threat is confirmed, the fighter has a (100 - 41) = 59% chance of getting a critical and doing vorpal nastiness.

Incidentally, as long as we're being munchkin, he'd likely be better served by taking back Overwhelming Critical, and carrying a keen scimitar. Then he'd threaten on 12-20, or 40% of the time. His chance of having four attacks be non-threats would be (0.60 ^4), or 0.1296, or 13%. That gives him an 87% chance of forcing the insta-death Fort save.

 

[KarinsDad]

@KarinsDad: I definitely know, where you are coming from, since I'm also quite involved in mathematics, and your view is (or is that was?) mathematically sound and correct. However, the rules are no strict mathematic system and I see it exactly like Uller clarified above. A Magic Missile has a variable effect, resulting in 2-5 per missile. This variable effect is multiplied by 1.5. Well I guess I didn't have to reiterate that now, but still...

But still, you had to rub my nose in it that I read it the wrong way long, long ago?

Thanks Thanee (not)!

 

[TiQuinn]

Damn it all....did NOBODY read the ELH all the way through?

Did everyone happen to miss the part that says Zagyg squashes all characters as soon as they hit 30th level or so anyways, so this discussion is all moot!

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Okay, you want a better example, I'll give you one!

What was wrong with my calculations?

And there are at least a few mistakes with this "combat". If we are going all out, lead with a disjunction, use a quickened haste, *then* hit the fighter with your bang spell....

Also, if the fighter activates his boots and is already within melee range, he can do a full round attack (ouch).

And why is Mr. Wizard using an 11th level spell slot to stand next to the Fighter *and* make a touch attack!?!? And it only does 200 points of damage....(on average)

11th: maximized empowered x4 Chain Lightning (20d6 + 200% = 120 (maxed) + 2 * 70 = 260, half 130)

I'd probably just use a maximized meteor swarm, do 144 points of damage from a distance (no save).

Even if this doesn't manage to kill the fighter, we are at least out of sword reach (maybe) and can blast him over and over again till the fighter dies....