PROOF that Empower Spell should not be allowed to stack with itself!

[KarinsDad]

The probability that he fails to threaten on one attack is 80%. The probability that he fails four times in a row is (0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8), or 0.4096, or 41%. So assuming any threat is confirmed, the fighter has a (100 - 41) = 59% chance of getting a critical and doing vorpal nastiness.

It's a big assumption that any threat is confirmed.

On top of that, I wouldn't even consider designing an Epic level character without some form of Fortification.

 

[James McMurray]

Sorry, my math was off. However, to use Anubis' word: "On average, the fighter will crit the wizard." Poof! Dead Wizard.

As for the wizard always winning every battle, that is true if he has initiative and you consider a fled foe a win. However, since that Fighter can always go get his friends and then attack the wizard when he least expects it, the situation is again fixed.

High level characters are all powerful, no matter their class. When you consider that they do not operate in a vaccuum (where these tests have been prepared) then you will realize that it is in part their resources beyond magic items that makes them powerful.

I believe it has been shown by others that your wizard is not guaranteed to win the battle. Try again.

 

[Anubis]

If I may make a suggestion...

In each of the examples Anubis uses, the wizard in question has used a combination of Empower and Improved MetaMagic to decimate a high HP foe. His argument is therefore that Empower is overpowered.

What would the numbers be like if Improved Metamagic were taken out of the equation?

I wish I had the materials here at work to run these numbers, but sadly I don't - anyone care to work them up?

I'll do it.



Here we go, without Improved Metamagic:

12th-Level Spell - Vampiric Touch [Maximize, Empower x3]

60 (10*6, Maximize) + (3.5*10/2)*3 = 112 damage

OR (since Vampiric Touch isn't the only spell there):

13th-Level Spell - Horrid Wilting [Maximize, Empower]

200 (25*8, Maximize) + (4.5*25/2)*1 = 256 damage

OR (for those of you who will complain about me combining feats):

13th-Level Spell - Vampiric Touch [Empower x5]

35 (3.5*10) + (3.5*10/2)*5 = 122 damage

OR (again with the other spell):

12th-Level Spell - Horrid Wilting [Empower x2]

112 (4.5*25) + (4.5*25/2)*2 = 224 damage

With the above examples, no longer using Improved Metamagic, Wizard STILL would have won the fight! How? Use the Horrid Wilting instead of the Vampiric Touch as the partial action in Round 1! Even with a successful save, any number of other spells could have killed Fighter instantly the next round!

So, now that I have stopped using a Deity and Orcus and Improved Metamagic in my exmaples, yet STILL shown that it does a ridiculous amount of damage, NOW do you believe me?

I'm not debating what the rules say about stacking being allowed, I saying IT'S BROKEN!

 

[Dr_Rictus]

It's a big assumption that any threat is confirmed.

Not really. If the fighter in question pretty much hits automatically with all but his last attack, he confirms threats pretty much automatically too.

On top of that, I wouldn't even consider designing an Epic level character without some form of Fortification.

The character under consideration doesn't happen to have it, but I'd tend to agree.

 

[TiQuinn]

I'm not debating what the rules say about stacking being allowed, I saying IT'S BROKEN!

OF COURSE, IT'S BROKEN! And since it comes up ALL THE TIME IN GAMES, it should be errata'ed.

 

[Enkhidu]

I'll do it.



Here we go, without Improved Metamagic:

12th-Level Spell - Vampiric Touch [Maximize, Empower x3]

60 (10*6, Maximize) + (3.5*10/2)*3 = 112 damage

OR (since Vampiric Touch isn't the only spell there):

13th-Level Spell - Horrid Wilting [Maximize, Empower]

200 (25*8, Maximize) + (4.5*25/2)*1 = 256 damage

OR (for those of you who will complain about me combining feats):

13th-Level Spell - Vampiric Touch [Empower x5]

35 (3.5*10) + (3.5*10/2)*5 = 122 damage

OR (again with the other spell):

12th-Level Spell - Horrid Wilting [Empower x2]

112 (4.5*25) + (4.5*25/2)*2 = 224 damage

With the above examples, no longer using Improved Metamagic, Wizard STILL would have won the fight! How? Use the Horrid Wilting instead of the Vampiric Touch as the partial action in Round 1! Even with a successful save, any number of other spells could have killed Fighter instantly the next round!

So, now that I have stopped using a Deity and Orcus and Improved Metamagic in my exmaples, yet STILL shown that it does a ridiculous amount of damage, NOW do you believe me?

I'm not debating what the rules say about stacking being allowed, I saying IT'S BROKEN!

OK, and here I am to play devil's advocate (sorry, can't resist).

How much damage, on average, will the 40th level fighter do? (using the given NPC, and switching out one feat for a more advantageous feat, much the same as you switched out Brew Potion in favor of Empower)?

At this point, I'm sort of curious if the damage levels equate...

 

[AuraSeer]

I just realized something. I've posted what, three times in this thread? (Four now, I suppose.)

I haven't been trolled so successfully in years. Anubis, I salute you! You're a master at the craft.

Now I'm gonna go read some other thread. Preferably one that doesn't involve dodging flecks of spittle from the raving OP.

 

[Anubis]

Tragically not. The most abusive is to add it to the most powerful assault spell in the game: Time Stop.

So an Empoweredx9 Time Stop (instead of Meteor Swarm or Empoweredx10 Horrid Wilting) effective multiplies (d4+1) by 5. On average rolls, you have 17.5 rounds of smackdown time.

In that amount of time, the wizard could kill the fighter using Magic Missiles alone (some of them would need to be Quickened, but not many).

That is the most abusive use of Empower Spell, and it demonstrates why Empower should not stack with itself very elegantly, no?

You can't damage an opponent during Time Stop.

Your argument does still hold up, however, by the fact that the Wizard can not only buff himself up to ridiculous levels of power in that time, but also have several Metamagic Delayed Blast Fireballs ready to blow.

 

[Anubis]

Oh joy, a probability argument.

If the fighter's weapon has a threat range of 17-20, he has a 20% chance to threaten. For the fighter to not threaten at all in the round, he must fail to threaten with each of his four attacks.

The probability that he fails to threaten on one attack is 80%. The probability that he fails four times in a row is (0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8 * 0.8), or 0.4096, or 41%. So assuming any threat is confirmed, the fighter has a (100 - 41) = 59% chance of getting a critical and doing vorpal nastiness.

Incidentally, as long as we're being munchkin, he'd likely be better served by taking back Overwhelming Critical, and carrying a keen scimitar. Then he'd threaten on 12-20, or 40% of the time. His chance of having four attacks be non-threats would be (0.60 ^4), or 0.1296, or 13%. That gives him an 87% chance of forcing the insta-death Fort save.

Vorpal only works with the NATURAL threat range of the weapon, so making it Keen wouldn't help, and the damage wouldn't be enough to take Wizard out.

 

[Anubis]

Damn it all....did NOBODY read the ELH all the way through?

Did everyone happen to miss the part that says Zagyg squashes all characters as soon as they hit 30th level or so anyways, so this discussion is all moot!

What in the heck are you talking about? That's nowhere to be found in the ELH.