PROPOSAL: Allow Non-Kalashtar to "initiate" the conversation...

KarinsDad

Adventurer
I have to say, I also don't really care.

If I were you, I really wouldn't care either.

The only reason this is important enough for KD to bring up at all is because for me, Telepathy has led to a slightly less than satisfactory roleplaying experience.

Every time a telepathic one off behind the scenes communications goes on in the game where my PC is prevented from participating, I think "Oh great, another roleplaying opportunity thrown in the garbage can".

I find Telepathy as a PBP concept to be annoying. Not a big deal, just a minor annoyance. And this is why I waited to even bring this up until the Kalashtar in our group who was the main focal point of most of these types of one off conversations had left the group because the player no longer enjoyed playing that PC.

And before someone says "But you decided for your PC to be out of those conversations", that's partially correct. I roleplayed my PC the exact way most players should have roleplayed their PCs: afraid of Telepathy when they first encounter it. Instead for the sake of expediency, the other players decided "oh well, it's only a game, my PC is totally cool with someone talking in his head" instead of it scaring the crap out of them. That's their choice too. I'm ok with that. But instead of dropping most of the Telepathy, the other players decided to continue using it. That's ok too. But because they made that choice, my roleplaying experience is slightly less satisfying.

It's also correct that most PCs are out of the one off telepathic communications, not just my PC.

And the rules appear to support a POV that not just anyone can do this, only the Kalashtar.

I also understand that it might not bother the other players. It bothers me both because it does not appear to be the rule and also because I don't roleplay to read a book. I roleplay to participate.

So I understand and even respect that you do not have a horse in this race. I do.

You're a judge. You should be impartial.

And note: I did not bring this up for a proposal. Kalidrev did. I only brought it up for discussion. Kalidrev appears to have enough of a horse in the race for him to propose it the way he wanted it proposed.

It couldn't be anymore explicit, Telepathy allows for two-way communication. There is no caveat that the telepathic individual must "initiate" conversation.

It would be explicit if it said "Anyone can initiate the conversation". Since it does not say that, you are inferring that rule out of whole cloth.

Your interpretation is not even implicit. The words "You can" and "Any ally can" are the only rules we have for initiating and hence, my interpretation is implicit.

Two way says nothing about who can start the communication. Your interpretation is called an assumption, not a rule because there is not one word in the rules that even hints at your interpretation.
 

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renau1g

First Post
There are good points for and against the reading of this power in a certain manner. Nothing explicitly states either way that the kalashter must initiate the conversation or that anyone can initiate the conversation. The Telepathy isn't a power, it's a racial ability. Bastion of Mental Clarity is their racial power, just as Eladrin Weapon Training isn't a power. Re: why can't I take telepathy as a language? Non-Kalashters aren't telepathic therefore can't speak it. Just like non-monk's can't just take Monk Unarmed Strike as a weapon proficiency. Group Mind is a seperate thing, but as we all know people can use OOC boxes to discuss tactics & if the DM says "don't do that" there's PM's and e-mail that fairly easily facilitate that. Just like in a RL game, players discuss tactics over the session OOC (at least in my experience both with LFR and my two RL groups) so it's not entirely inappropriate. Group mind is an extremely powerful feat if this was real so that PC's can communicate with each other without the enemy overhearing, but like I said unless the DM explicitly forbids OOC discussions AND somehow disables PM's and electronic communication than they can happen.

Why would anyone play a goblin when a drow or halfling is mechanically superior in every way? There are feats that are less powerful than others (Alchemal Opportunist for example) in reality don't come into play too often.

I've interpreted the rules fairly openly (as I tend to do as a DM) in my game, hence why I allowed non-kalashter to start the conversation.
 

CaBaNa

First Post
Oh I misunderstood nothing. Telepathy is listed under the same section as aura (something that can be turned on and off). And as I pointed out it's listed in the eberron book as a language but it gets changed when you look the the CB/DDI. The misinterpretation is you treating it like a language when it no longer is.

And telepathy is a keyword? You mean the thing attached to powers? and you are using this to say telepathy shouldn't be looked at like a power? And what power has the telepathy keyword? Looking at my psion sheets all I see is Psionic and Psychic. Even send thoughts is psionic not telepathy.

SO... It is in fact not a keyword (unless I'm missing something or it's changed) and not a language (at least as far as the updated kalashtar). And nothing states that it's on or off by default. I can't see where you can state it as fact.

As I don't have DDi, giving me a DDI link isn't very helpfull... Ok, it's a ritual. After reading it, I fail to see where is states that telepathy is on by default. It stops mental communication. How is that helpful?

As quoted from the compendium, "An aura is a continuous effect that emanates from a creature." it goes on to say that an aura can be turned off and on with a minor action.

Aura is listed under "Rules Combat", while Telepathy is listed as "Rules Other".

Telepathy is not a power, because it doesn't have a power block. It is not at-will or encounter, it does not have a target, it is not cast/prayed/exploited, it cannot be turned off, and it is not on.

When Telepathy can be found on a monsters sheet, it is still listed under Languages.

Keyword, as in search term, not keyword as in "fire/psychic/weapon/implement".

Telepathy is a form of mental communication.

Two-way communication is by definition, both ways.

So if your friend doesn't have your phone number, it's one way communication. You can call him, that is one direction, when he can call you, that is two directions. (I don't like the phone analogy, it's more like a shortwave radio.)



It sounds like a power to me, If it were a language I could take it as one of my bonus languages, right? Or would I have to take it as a language to speak mentaly with a Kalashtar? Without quoting any rules a power seems to be something that not everyone can do, isn't that what this telepathy is?

Just like Supernal, it is more difficult to gain Telepathy than just taking a bonus language.

You don't have to take Telepathy as a bonus language to speak it with a Kalashtar, because it allows two-way communication, by definition.

A power gets a power-block, and is listed under powers. Telepathy is listed under "Rules Other" and shows up in the language section of everything except Kalashtar.

If I were you, I really wouldn't care either.

The only reason this is important enough for KD to bring up at all is because for me, Telepathy has led to a slightly less than satisfactory roleplaying experience.

Every time a telepathic one off behind the scenes communications goes on in the game where my PC is prevented from participating, I think "Oh great, another roleplaying opportunity thrown in the garbage can".

I find Telepathy as a PBP concept to be annoying. Not a big deal, just a minor annoyance. And this is why I waited to even bring this up until the Kalashtar in our group who was the main focal point of most of these types of one off conversations had left the group because the player no longer enjoyed playing that PC.

And before someone says "But you decided for your PC to be out of those conversations", that's partially correct. I roleplayed my PC the exact way most players should have roleplayed their PCs: afraid of Telepathy when they first encounter it. Instead for the sake of expediency, the other players decided "oh well, it's only a game, my PC is totally cool with someone talking in his head" instead of it scaring the crap out of them. That's their choice too. I'm ok with that. But instead of dropping most of the Telepathy, the other players decided to continue using it. That's ok too. But because they made that choice, my roleplaying experience is slightly less satisfying.

It's also correct that most PCs are out of the one off telepathic communications, not just my PC.

And the rules appear to support a POV that not just anyone can do this, only the Kalashtar.

I also understand that it might not bother the other players. It bothers me both because it does not appear to be the rule and also because I don't roleplay to read a book. I roleplay to participate.

So I understand and even respect that you do not have a horse in this race. I do.

You're a judge. You should be impartial.

And note: I did not bring this up for a proposal. Kalidrev did. I only brought it up for discussion. Kalidrev appears to have enough of a horse in the race for him to propose it the way he wanted it proposed.



It would be explicit if it said "Anyone can initiate the conversation". Since it does not say that, you are inferring that rule out of whole cloth.

Your interpretation is not even implicit. The words "You can" and "Any ally can" are the only rules we have for initiating and hence, my interpretation is implicit.

Two way says nothing about who can start the communication. Your interpretation is called an assumption, not a rule because there is not one word in the rules that even hints at your interpretation.

Except it wasn't a RP opportunity thrown in the garbage can, the characters are RPing. Also, there is no particular way a PC should react to Telepathy.

Your interpretation is implicit, it is derived.

My interpretation is explicit, it says, "Telepathy... allows for two-way communication".

The definition of two-way, from dictionary.reference.com, "2. allowing or entailing communication or exchange between two persons, groups, countries, etc."

If the non-Kalashtar cannot initiate conversation, it no longer meets the definition of two-way.

If WotC wanted Telepathy to only be activated by Kalashtar they would have said as much, as shown by Send Thoughts.
 

Maidhc O Casain

Na Bith Mo Riocht Tá!
As a player in the Moonwatch adventure, I have a 'horse in the race.' As KD has pointed out, this seems to be actually a roll play dispute rather than a rules dispute. True, Kalidrev is the one who made it a proposal - because it was pointed out that, while the discussion remained civil, it was going nowhere, really.

While this could be made into a rules issue (actually has been, I guess, with the proposal), it shouldn't be; in my opinion, the rules are 'light' for a reason - to allow the GM to mold the adventure to the group, and to what he intends for the adventure.

So my two cents in the pot is: leave this one up to the GM.

[sblock=Aside]I'm not sure where this should go, but it seems somewhat pertinent to the discussion, so . . .

KD, you are a great roll player, from what I've seen. And I agree 100% with your take on OOC vs. IC play.

But I also believe that as a late addition to the group it's my responsibility to fit myself to the style of the group rather than trying to mold the group to my own preferences.

I knew what I was getting into before I signed up - I had the entire history of the game available through the old posts. I knew going in that tactics were being discussed OOC, and that Telepathy was being used 'fast and loose.' So, I make the choice NOT to do so, and try my best to base my character's actions on what he knows.

But it's not my place to come in and tell the rest of the group to change the way they've been playing - especially when the group has been cohesive and having a good time. And it's not my place to tell the GM to change the way he's been running the game - especially when the game has been going successfully and everyone's been having a good time.

Again, I have tremendous respect for your roll play abilities and your knowledge of the rules, and for your integrity when it comes to playing your character. But even though it's in a different forum (OOC rather then IC) this seems like another attempt to get the GM and players in an established game (with a cohesive group where everyone was enjoying themselves), one that you had ample opportunity to examine prior to joining, to change the way they're playing.[/sblock]
 
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KarinsDad

Adventurer
But even though it's in a different forum (OOC rather then IC) this seems like another attempt to get the GM and players in an established game (with a cohesive group where everyone was enjoying themselves), one that you had ample opportunity to examine prior to joining, to change the way they're playing.

I think it important that you brought this up. Like any RPG, PBP is a group activity. Every person in the group has the right to influence the group in many different ways, both IC and OCC. This is not a sole right of original players, nor is it a sole right of the DM.

I am rules oriented. I prefer to play by the rules and not throw them out the window. Although the rule here is not explicit, it is implicit.

I brought this up as a discussion point. I did not bring it up for a vote, I did not ask renau1g to change his game, and I did not bring this up in game. I am not trying to force people to play a certain way. I was, however, very interested in people's opinions on it, found it to be a bit problematic as played, and do enjoy discussing things like this in detail.

I do, however, have a strong opinion on it myself. And now that it has come up for a vote and since I have a strong opinion on it, I will lobby for my preference.


It is important for you to express this concern about one person trying to change something for everyone else. I really do understand it and I think everyone has the right to discuss changes, even if a majority doesn't want a change. I don't have the right to force everyone or even anyone to change, but I have a right to discuss it. If you consider that KD creating waves, I cannot do anything about that.

I hope you understand my concerns on PC telepathy and the reasons to interpret it in a less loose fashion, especially in a PBP environment. You don't have to agree with my concerns, but I hope you understand them.

While this could be made into a rules issue (actually has been, I guess, with the proposal), it shouldn't be; in my opinion, the rules are 'light' for a reason - to allow the GM to mold the adventure to the group, and to what he intends for the adventure.

So my two cents in the pot is: leave this one up to the GM.

I agree. With Kalidrev bringing this up for a proposal, he is trying to force all DMs here to play it the way he wants it played. I personally think that this proposal should be scrapped and we let each DM play it the way he wants in this case. It would be nice if WotC clarified this though (as a rules oriented person, I do prefer rules clarification over rules obscurity). I do see Group Mind as basically worthless if played one way, but meh. It wouldn't be the first worthless feat.
 


Kalidrev

First Post
KD,

I disagree that this proposal would make Group Mind worthless. The racial ability gives one-on-one, two-way communication. The second gives the entire group one-on-group, multi-way communication. We may have played the Telepathy "fast and loose" in Trouble in Moonwatch, but I do not believe I ever had Lan use telepathy to relay IC information to all party members at once during a battle. Yes, out of battle I had Lan relay information to all party members, but I simply neglected (or chose not, depending on how you see it) to say that I was relaying it one-on-one to each member (mostly for brevity's sake). If you can supply a time that I did this in combat, then I apologize for my mistakes.

Like you, I do not believe that the Telepathy racial ability should be used to facilitate conversation between all party members at once (at least until the Group Mind feat has been taken by the kalashtar in the party). It would be nice if we had a concrete answer from WOTC on this one, but since most people disregard what Customer Service says anyways (ask twice, get three different answers and all that), the ruling will have to fall on the judges.

I resent the fact that you think I am trying to FORCE DMs to do anything. I simply want a resolution to a question that at least you and I have had. I, too, tend to be rather rules aware, but when no explicit rules have been presented on a particular item, I do not believe that implicit rules can be or should be used as written in stone. This is because, as has been proven by this discussion, there are multiple interpretations of how this racial ability should work. Neither side is right or wrong, currently, as there has been no official ruling on this by either WOTC or our Judges. Once this happens, then we can both play by the rules.
 

EvolutionKB

First Post
I've read over the thread so far. I see the sides of both points and if I voted on the proposal, I'd vote Yes. However I can see the merits of letting the DM adjucate the issue.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
I resent the fact that you think I am trying to FORCE DMs to do anything. I simply want a resolution to a question that at least you and I have had.

I'm sorry that you resent my thoughts on this and apologize if I offended you. I thought my thoughts here mirrored your own:

Kalidrev said:
I know I can't vote on this proposal, but if it were proposed by someone else, it may have been proposed for the flip-side, and then I would only be voting no so that it WASN'T that way, instead of the proposal being worded my way.

Proposals here are ways to have everyone follow the same rules or be allowed the same set of options. How can you consider them anything else?

I do think proposals here should be for more important mechanics rules and PC options than roleplaying rules (this is only a mechanics rule if DMs do not allow OOC tactics discussions).

PS. It still sucks that Lan left the group. ;)
 

Kalidrev

First Post
KarinsDad said:
PS. It still sucks that Lan left the group. ;)

LOL, yeah, I like the CHARACTER of Lan, and wish that I had not already used up that chracters overhaul, cause I would have simply moved him to a different class and kept his fluff. I really am not happy with the way that the Avenger has turned out and simply wanted to go a different rout all together, rather than simply recreating him in a class that he may not work out well in. I am currently in love with the defender role, so I decided to create a defender for the group (I think we need one anyway).

P.S. I am still very much looking forward to RPing with Sheeva, and hope that this issue can get resolved soon so that we can continue on with the game without too much more hassle. :)
 

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