PROPOSAL: Dragon Magazine 368

[Kalidrev]

More specifically from DM 368, I am proposing the following:

WEAPON: The Whip

Superior one-handed melee weapon
Cost: 1gp
Damage: 1d4
Proficient: +3
Range: -
Weight: 2 lb

Although an impractical weapon in most hands, a well-placed whip strike can put one's opponent at a serious disadvantage.

Properties:
Reach (With a reach weapon, you can attack enemies that are 2 squares away from you as well as adjacent enemies, with no attack penalty. You can still make opportunity attacks only against adjacent enemies. Likewise, you can flank only an adjacent enemy.).
Off-Hand (An off-hand weapon is light enough that you can hold it and attack effectively with it while holding a weapon in your main hand. You can't attack with both weapons in the same turn, unless you have a power that lets you do so, but you can attack with erither weapon.).

Group:
Flail (Weapons in the flail group have a flexible material, usually a length of chain, between a solid handle and the damage-dealing end of the weapon.).



FEAT: Whip Training [Multiclass Whip]

Tier: Heroic
Prerequisites: Dex 13, any martial class

You gain proficiency with the whip. When you hit a target with your whip, that target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls against a target of your choice until the end of your next turn.


I apologize if this has already been proposed, but i searched the forum and saw no proposals for either the whip or for DM 368. Feel free to place a dunce cap on my head if this has already been proposed.

FEAT: Whip Novice [Multiclass]

Tier: Heroic
Prerequisites: Whip Training, 4th level

You can swap one 3rd-level or higher encounter attack power you know for the whip snare attack power

Whip Snare Feat Power
With a deft flick of the wrist, you coil your whip around your foe's limb, giving you some control of where that enemy goes-down or toward you.
Encounter * Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Dexterity vs Reflex
Requirement: You must be wileding a whip.
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and you can knock the target prone or pull the target 1 square.
At 11th level, increase to 3[W] damage.
At 21st level, increase to 4[W] damage.


FEAT: Whip Expert [Multiclass]

Tier: Whip raining, 8th level

You can swap one 6th-level or higher utility power you know for the whip crack utility power.

Whip Crack Feat Power
You snap you whip, warning your enemy not to move carelessly.
Encounter * Weapon
Minor Action Personal
Requirement: You must be wielding a whip.
Effect: Until the start of your next turn, when an enemy within your reach takes an action that provokes opportunity attacks from adjacent enemies, it provokes an opportunity attack from you.


FEAT: Whip Specialist [Multiclass]

Tier: Heroic
Prerequisites: Whip Training, 10th level

You can swap one 9th-level or higher daily attack power you know for the entangling whip attack power.

Entangling Whip Feat Power
Your whip is like an extension of you, coiling around your enemy so you can drat that foe wherever you like.
Daily * Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
Requirement: You must be wielding a whip.
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, the target is grabbed (until escape) and knocked prone. The target takes a -5 penalty to escape the grab, and while you have the target grabbed you can pull it 1 square as a minor action. While grabbing the target, you cannot make attacks with the whip. You can sustain the grab as long as the target is within 2 squares of you.
At 15th level, increase to 3[W] damage.
At 25th level, increase to 4[W] damage.
Miss: The target is grabbed (until escape) and knocked prone. While you have the target grabbed you can pull it 1 square as a minor action. While grabbing the target, you cannot make attacks with the whip. You can sustain the grab as long as the target is within 2 squares of you.

 

[elecgraystone]

The whip is unique as the only 1 handed reach weapons. Reach plus shield [or TWO reach weapons] equals awesome. They really shine with a tempest fighter.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

We might as well consider the entire article while we're at it.

For reference, the issue is here (requires DDI) and the whip is in the article "We Who Are About To Die..."

As for the rest of the issue, it contains:

Backdrop: Greywall (setting material only, no player options or items)
Playtest: Barbarian (obsoleted by PHB2)
Campaign Items (advice only, no player options or items)
Items of Legend (new paragon and epic level artifacts)
Fight! (rules for gladiator combat, new monsters, traps and skill challenges - no need to vote on this IMHO, DM's can just put them in adventure proposals if they want to use them)
We Who Are About To Die... (player options and magic items for Gladiators)
Domains of Dread: Sunderheart (setting and monsters only, nothing that needs voting on)
Refuge in the Mournland: Stillwater Station (setting only, nothing to vote on)
Design & Development: Death & Dying (regular column, nothing to vote on)
Confessions of a Full-Time Wizard: Game Shame (regular column, nothing to vote on)
RPGA Report (regular column, nothing to vote on)
Ampersand: What Happens in Vegas... (editorial, has previews from Manual of the Planes which are obsoleted since we have the full thing)

Only the bolded articles have things to vote on.

Leaving aside the artifacts, here's what the Gladiator article contains:

12 Heroic Tier feats, including a new Channel Divinity feat. Haven't read them all, but Staff Fighting is notable because it turns a quarterstaff into a double weapon, which might interact with our house rule.
4 Paragon Tier feats
2 Epic Tier feats
24 "Arena Fighting" feats (Heroic tier power modification feats for martial characters)
Arena Champion paragon path
5 magic armours
4 magic weapons
3 new superior weapons (bola, net and whip)
3 sets of multiclass "Weapon Mastery" feats & powers, for each of the new weapons

Since the OP asked for the whip specifically, we should focus on that first.

 

[Kalidrev]

Thanks JNC, you rock! I kind of wanted to post what you did... but i was being lazy and only really cared about the whip. You rock!

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

The whip is unique as the only 1 handed reach weapons. Reach plus shield [or TWO reach weapons] equals awesome. They really shine with a tempest fighter.

Haha dual whips, I know what my next character is going to be.

Whu-
(no, that's not right)

Wu-
(no, not it either)

Whi-
(wrong. Again)

How on earth do you spell the whip crack noise? Oh screw it.

*whip crack noises*

Wait, no, ok, here's my next character. A ranger who uses a whip and a rapier and dresses predominantly in black. Oh, and he'll be a longtooth shifter, only more fox-ish than wolfish.*

Clearly, I have nothing meaningful to add to this discussion.

*whip crack noises*




*This is a Zorro reference, in case you were curious. Hopefully somebody got that.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

Ok, still haven't had time to look at all of these in depth, but just for the whip:

Only one-handed reach weapon, huh? You said it's powerful, but do you think it's overpowered? At 1d4 my first thought was the low damage trades for the range, but with the number of 2[W] powers available, I dunno - 2d4 is fine damage for a one-handed range weapon. And, as KenHood pointed out in another thread, "as much damage as a dagger" is pretty ridiculous for a whip. Would it be better to make this do 1 or 1d2 damage?

Whip Crack is weird:

"Until the start of your next turn, when an enemy within your reach takes an action that provokes opportunity attacks from adjacent enemies, it provokes an opportunity attack from you."

Why not just say, "Until the start of your next turn, you have threatening reach?" Or does this mean that it has to actually provoke an attack from an adjacent enemy, and then you get an OA too?

Whip Specialist seems pretty powerful to me. Knock prone and grab on a miss? I'd be inclined to drop miss to just "knock prone" (maybe "half damage and knock prone", if that's too weak).

 

[elecgraystone]

Ok, still haven't had time to look at all of these in depth, but just for the whip:

Only one-handed reach weapon, huh? You said it's powerful, but do you think it's overpowered? At 1d4 my first thought was the low damage trades for the range, but with the number of 2[W] powers available, I dunno - 2d4 is fine damage for a one-handed range weapon. And, as KenHood pointed out in another thread, "as much damage as a dagger" is pretty ridiculous for a whip. Would it be better to make this do 1 or 1d2 damage?)

While the damage seems high from a realism standpoint, it seems balanced enough mechanically. And if you think whip seems high, blowgun is a d4 high crit weapon!

"Until the start of your next turn, when an enemy within your reach takes an action that provokes opportunity attacks from adjacent enemies, it provokes an opportunity attack from you."

Why not just say, "Until the start of your next turn, you have threatening reach?" Or does this mean that it has to actually provoke an attack from an adjacent enemy, and then you get an OA too?

It adds another trigger to OA. If the enemy is alone, no OA unlike threatening reach. It WOULD be easier if it was threatening reach, but this makes you attack two adjacent enemies if you want an OA.

Whip Specialist seems pretty powerful to me. Knock prone and grab on a miss? I'd be inclined to drop miss to just "knock prone" (maybe "half damage and knock prone", if that's too weak).[/quote]There are 9th level attacks that do 1/2 damage and slow, immobilize or daze [Form of the Storm Eagle, Knockout, Agonizing Shot, Not Worth My Time]. This grabs and knocks prone but deals no damage. Seems fair to me.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

It does 2[W] damage, doesn't it? And do those powers do their full effects (or close to) on a miss?

 

[elecgraystone]

Yep, I think all the powers I listed are 2[W].

And all the effects are reduced, like from save ends to end of next turn. The only thing is there ISN'T a reduced form of prone or grabbed. You either are or you aren't and there isn't a time limit to it. I assume that's why it goes from 2[W] to no damage; they couldn't reduce the effect so they negated the damage. There is also the fact that you can't use your whip until the grab is finished so you are 'disarming' yourself to keep the grab.

I think it balances nicely as is. Only having knock prone on a miss would make to so it's an inferior attack. 1/2 damage and prone could work I guess but is still makes it a fairly weak attack. Most dailies do MUCH more on hits. Not worth my time does 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, push 1 and immobilized (save ends). Miss = Half damage, no push, and the target is immobilized until the end of its next turn. It has a save effect. Prone lasts until the targets turn and unless you are spec'd for grabs, it's likely that the target is out of that round too.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

Ok, I had time on the train the other day to look at all of these. Here are my thoughts:

Staff Fighting - I'm ok with this because it doesn't give the Quarterstaff any extra keywords beyond Off-Hand/Defensive (unlike Spiked Chain, which I now think was a mistake)
Called Shot - Better than most bonus critical damage (5 vs. 1d6), and could be made to apply to almost every attack! Compare Devastating Critical, also Paragon: 5.5 additional damage, on average, when you get a critical (which you can't choose), vs. 5 additional damage whenever you're the closest to the enemy, which is something you can set up yourself. I think there should be a penalty too. (Maybe, "Do +5 damage instead of the standard Called Shot bonus"?)

Two-Weapon Ambush - This is ok since it can only be used with 1H weapons, and none of these have 2dX damage codes, but we need to be careful about adding new 1H weapons after we adopt this.

Crushing Grab - Does this let you crush people with a whip or net? (Probably. That's pretty cool! I just want to be clear, I don't think that's too much for an Epic feat.)

Arena Specialist: Circling Strike - Lets you shift in, attack, and shift out as an at-will: usually the game's been pretty careful with this (see Palindrome's fight with the elven archers.) I prefer the Battle-Scarred Veteran: Nimble Strike form, which only gives you the second shift on a hit.

Binding Style: Dual Strike - This doesn't work with the new form of Dual Strike, since it needs both attacks to hit the same target. (I checked, we don't already have any power swap feats affected by this.)

Catspaw Style: Predator Strike - Knock prone with an at-will? Predator Strike already has an extra damage bonus, and it's easier to get CA with a beast. I think this is a bit much.

Daring Performer: Brash Assault - Seems powerful, but not at least not RRoT level powerful.

Exotic Fighting Style: Brash Assault - I don't like the way this just negates the drawback of this power.

Exotic Fighting Style: Sure Strike - Sure Strike's balance is that you get a hard-to-come-by attack bonus, but no bonus damage. I don't like the way this changes that equation.

Exotic Fighting Style: Twin Strike - We don't allow many double weapons. Maybe make it "at least one superior weapon" or "two superior weapons" to make this useful?

Grudge Style: Sure Strike - See Exotic Fighting Style

Hunting Spider Style: Dual Strike - I think this still works with the new Dual Strike. Need to specify whether just one or both targets can't see you.

Hunting Spider Style: Predator Strike - How come this specifies "flanking" but Catspaw just says "CA"? I don't think it's unbalanced, just odd.

Starlight Duelist: Dual Strike - I think this still works with the new Dual Strike, just need to change the wording to "one of the targets".

Swift Blade Style: Dual Strike - Definitely works with new Dual Strike, since it doesn't specify anything about a target.

Flensing Weapon: "Considered bloodied (save ends)" is an interesting mechanic. Can anybody think of anything unbalanced about it?

Whip: I think the whip with Whip Training is overpowered with multi-weapon attacks: since the -2 stacks, you can use a whip in either hand to do 1d4 damage AND -2 to attack rolls twice, *at range*. I would add "once per turn". I think 1 damage on the whip is too low, but 1d4 is too much - I might make it 1d2 or 1d3, but there's no precedent for that.

Net: 1d6 damage just seems ridiculous for a net. I'd make this 1d4.