(Proposal) Learner Prestige Class

Knight Otu said:
Here's the relevant quote from the SRD:

I don't like that formula. Not one bit. :)

Not just because it breaks what we're doing here, but also because it's a bit ambiguous. Spell level of a spell that closely resembles the ability? Come on, who's actually going to do that...

At that point, I'd say the learning DC is seperate from the saving throw DC, and say that it's always 10 + one-half monster's HD + monster's Cha mod. That solves the problem.

OK. I'll be able to live with that. As long as it doesn't reveal class identity. :p

It does not do that. :)

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RillianPA - you have some interesting points. However, the entire purpose of the learner is to learn monster abilities - and while some replicate spells, not all do.

I don't like the idea of opening up blue spells to all arcane spellcasters as a whole. There's probably a reason WotC didn't do that in the first place. That point is what gives the learner a niche.

Also, making the learner a learner of any set of spells would make it, eventually, rather broken... a high-level learner could, in theory, have the best healing spells, the best offensive spells, the best everything. It would effectively become a variant of the mystic theurge, but better.

So, while you have some interesting ideas, I think we'll leave the learner and the blue spells as they are. The system isn't that complex, and the two go hand-in-hand.

Thanks for offering, though. :)
 

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GnomeWorks said:
Not just because it breaks what we're doing here, but also because it's a bit ambiguous. Spell level of a spell that closely resembles the ability? Come on, who's actually going to do that...
Well, technically, each spell-like ability is supposed to have a spell level. But in practice, you're right, nobody does that. ;)

GnomeWorks said:
At that point, I'd say the learning DC is seperate from the saving throw DC, and say that it's always 10 + one-half monster's HD + monster's Cha mod. That solves the problem.
That's propably the best solution.

OK, a few more things. What about Damage Reduction. It is supposed to be Supernatural when the DR is /magic, /epic or /alignment. Earlier in this thread, I read it was supposed to be learnable. Is that still the case?

Pisi-Like abilities (Ps) - if there were monsters with Ps abilities (there aren't currently, (Ps) is used only in classes; monsters use a Psionics line, which isn't learnable), could they be learned as normal?
 

RillianPA - you have some interesting points. However, the entire purpose of the learner is to learn monster abilities - and while some replicate spells, not all do.

I don't like the idea of opening up blue spells to all arcane spellcasters as a whole. There's probably a reason WotC didn't do that in the first place. That point is what gives the learner a niche.

Also, making the learner a learner of any set of spells would make it, eventually, rather broken... a high-level learner could, in theory, have the best healing spells, the best offensive spells, the best everything. It would effectively become a variant of the mystic theurge, but better.

So, while you have some interesting ideas, I think we'll leave the learner and the blue spells as they are. The system isn't that complex, and the two go hand-in-hand.

Thanks for offering, though.

I am glad to help (even if I dont :) ).

I do think you misunderstood me though. I wasn't suggesting that the Learner be able to learn any spell, just arcane spells (and appropriate blue spells, which would be arcane anyway). Certainly not spells from any other spells lists not already available to the Learner.

The point is that either the Blue Spells are balanced for any appropriate level arcane caster, or they are not balanced for anyone (including the Learner). Once you carry this thought out to its logical conclusion, if you want to allow Blue Spells, then they must be balanced, and therefore available to all characters with the wiz/sorc spell list...and possibly others. This, of course, requires a shift in the scope of the Learner PrC, since it no longer has singular access to a school of magic. What I was suggesting, was the ability for a wizard to learn arcane spells, already on his spell list (plus the new Blue Spells, of course), simply by Observing them. A nice, but not hugely significant advantage.

On the otherhand, if what you really want is a character that can develop a set of abilities based on monster Sp and Su 's, you should abandon the idea of spells entirely, and simply give the PrC the ability to mimic a certain number monster abilities per day, which is really an entirely different kind of thing.
 
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The entire purpose of the learner is to learn the abilities of monsters. If you open up blue spells to all arcane spellcasters, you get rid of the learner's purpose.

Also, if you make the learner able to learn arcane spells of any kind... that isn't what the class is about. It's in a similar vein, but it's like comparing oranges and some other fruit - both are fruit, but they're still different things.

On the otherhand, if what you really want is a character that can develop a set of abilities based on monster Sp and Su 's, you should abandon the idea of spells entirely, and simply give the PrC the ability to mimic a certain number monster abilities per day, which is really an entirely different kind of thing.

That is effectively what is being done. Initially, the blue spells weren't given levels, but required the expenditure of spell slots whose total spell level equalled or exceeded the CR of the creature the ability was learned from.

However, there were a few holes in that system, so it was dropped in favor of applying spell levels to all blue spells.

Making the monster abilities into spells makes them a lot more usable by players; they're in a familiar format, with everything spelled out, rather than trying to infer the specific mechanics of the ability from the description in the SRD or MM. For usage by monsters that the party will probably only encounter once in a great while, the lack of detailed mechanics in the SRD/MM is fine, but if it's to be used by players, a little more information is required... it also shows that, even though they're emulating the monster's ability, it isn't a perfect emulation. Some things are lost in translation, as it were.
 

Well maybe I should just ask the question in a different way. If the Blue Spells are balanced, why can't any wizard simply develop/learn them on his own? Wizards are certainly allowed to develop new spells. And if any wizard could choose to develop them,

The entire purpose of the learner is to learn the abilities of monsters. If you open up blue spells to all arcane spellcasters, you get rid of the learner's purpose.

Basically by making them spells, you have already opened them up to any wizard.
 

Blue spells are not available to anyone other than learners. This isn't spelled out, but it is heavily implied. If you are not a learner, you cannot learn blue spells.
 

Knight Otu said:
OK, a few more things. What about Damage Reduction. It is supposed to be Supernatural when the DR is /magic, /epic or /alignment. Earlier in this thread, I read it was supposed to be learnable. Is that still the case?

Yep, DR that is Su or Sp in nature is learnable.

Psi-Like abilities (Ps) - if there were monsters with Ps abilities (there aren't currently, (Ps) is used only in classes; monsters use a Psionics line, which isn't learnable), could they be learned as normal?

Um... hmm. I'd say yes: psi-like is to psionics what spell-like is to spells, so I don't see an issue there.
 

The Learner, v4.6

LEARNER (Blue Mage)
The learner – sometimes called a ‘blue mage’, for their practice – is perhaps one of the more eccentric occupations available in the world. Unlike any other group, the learners gain their abilities not from training or knowledge, but from experiencing them at the hands of monsters.

What is a blue mage? That is hard to say. There is no such thing as an archetypal learner, for each one is different. Each comes to the art of blue magic in their own ways, and each studies it in their own fashion. Though they are far different from each other, they share one common bond... the desire to research and learn more.

NPC learners are usually found in areas rich in monsters, looking for new blue spells to learn.

Hit Die: d6.

REQUIREMENTS
To qualify to become a learner, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 6 ranks.
Feats: Endurance.
Spells: Able to spontaneously cast at least 2nd-level arcane spells.

CLASS SKILLS
The learner’s class skills are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), Knowledge (The Planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier

Code:
[color=white][b]TABLE L-1: THE LEARNER

			Fort	Will	Ref
Lvl	BAB		Save	Save	Save	Special			Spells Per Day[/b]
1	+0		+0	+2	+0	Observation, Lore,	+1 level of existing class
						Lancelet 1/day			
2	+1		+0	+3	+0	Peep			+1 level of existing class
3	+2		+1	+3	+1				+1 level of existing class
4	+3		+1	+4	+1	Conversion		+1 level of existing class
5	+3		+1	+4	+1	Lancelet 2/day		+1 level of existing class
6	+4		+2	+5	+2	Scan		        +1 level of existing class
7	+5		+2	+5	+2				+1 level of existing class
8	+6		+2	+6	+2	Resistance		+1 level of existing class
9	+6		+3	+6	+3				+1 level of existing class
10	+7		+3	+7	+3	Continual Learning,	+1 level of existing class
						Lancelet 3/day[/color]

CLASS FEATURES
All the following are class features of the learner prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Learners gain no new proficiencies.

When in light armor, a learner does not suffer from arcane spell failure when casting spells with the Blue descriptor.

Spells per Day: At every level, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of learner to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before he became a learner, he must decide to which class he adds each level of learner for the purpose of determining spells per day.

The learner does not gain additional spells known.

Blue Spells: In addition to his normal arcane spells, the learner also gains the ability to learn spells with the Blue descriptor. These are special spells that are learned from observing or being subject to monster abilities (see Observation, below).

A learner can know a number of blue spells equal to his Intelligence score + his learner level; he can even know blue spells of a level that he cannot yet cast. At every second learner level, he can lose a known blue spell to make room for an "unlearned" blue spell (see Observation, below).

Observation (Ex): The primary way that a learner learns blue spells is through observation. As a standard action, a learner can watch the creatures within Close range (25 feet + 5 feet/2 learner levels). If any of them should use an Su or Sp ability until the learner’s next action, the learner may attempt to learn the blue spell associated with that ability.

In order to learn the blue spell, the learner must make a Knowledge check against the Su or Sp ability’s saving throw DC. If it doesn’t have one, the DC to learn the ability is 10 + one-half the monster’s HD + the monster’s Charisma modifier. If the learner succeeds, he learns the blue spell associated with that ability, so long as he has not learned his maximum number of blue spells. The Knowledge skill used to learn the blue spell depends upon the monster's type, as per the table below...

Arcana: constructs, dragons, magical beasts, undead.
Dungeoneering: aberrations, oozes.
Nature: animals, fey, giants, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin.
The Planes: elementals, outsiders.

If he does not have an available blue spell slot, he can still learn the spell, though it remains an "unlearned" blue spell until he does so. To learn the spell, he must swap out a blue spell (see Blue Spells, above). A learner can only retain a single "unlearned" blue spell at a time, and if he would have two "unlearned" blue spells, he must choose which one he will retain. Such "unlearned" blue spells are not on his spells known list and therefore cannot be cast. The blue spell lost to learn the "unlearned" blue spell need not be of the same spell level as the "unlearned" spell.

If the learner fails, he does not gain the spell. However, the next time he attempts to learn that spell in the same combat, he gets a +1 competence bonus on his Knowledge check to learn the spell for each time he has failed. This bonus only counts for attempts to learn that spell in that combat; once the combat ends, the learner loses all competence bonuses to Knowledge checks to learn blue spells.

If the learner is attacked with an Su or Sp ability while observing, he gets a +4 bonus on the Knowledge check to learn that ability.

If the learner is observing, and a monster currently affected by Lancelet uses an Su or Sp ability, the learner gets a +4 bonus to the Knowledge check to learn that ability.

If the learner is attacked with an Su or Sp ability by a monster currently affected by Lancelet while observing, the learner gets a +8 bonus to the Knowledge check to learn that ability.

Lore (Ex): Learners are well-versed in the nature of monstrosities. As such, he may make a special knowledge check with a bonus equal to his learner level + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information concerning a monster or blue magic.

Code:
[color=white][b]DC	Type of Knowledge			Examples[/b]
10	Common, known by at least a		The existence of lycanthropes; more
	substantial minority of the local	common blue spells.
	population.
20	Uncommon but available, known		The nature of angels and eladrins;
	by only a few people in the area.	unusual blue spells.
25	Obscure, known by few, hard to		The history of a race of monsters; 
	come by.				powerful blue spells.
30	Extremely obscure, known by		The history of an ancient, lost race;
	very few.				blue spells learned from extinct species.[/color]

A successful lore check will not reveal the powers of a magic item related to blue magic but may given a hint as to its general function. A learner may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random.

A learner can make a Lore check to determine what blue spells can be learned from a given monster; the DC is equal to 10 + the monster’s HD.

Lancelet (Sp): As a ranged touch attack, a learner can magically tag a monster. This arcane tool allows the learner to learn any Su or Sp abilities the monster uses while it is affected by the Lancelet, regardless of its distance from the learner. In order to use the Lancelet, the learner must expend a spell slot of any level; the Lancelet lasts for 1 round + 1 round/spell level. Each round the creature is affected, it may make a Fort save against a DC of 10 + learner level + learner's Wisdom modifier to cancel the effects of the Lancelet, negating it.

Effects that prevent the creature from being scryed also prevent the Lancelet from affecting it.

This ability is usable once per day at 1st level, and once more per day every five levels after that (twice a day at 5th, three times a day at 10th, etc).

If the learner is observing, and a monster currently affected by Lancelet uses an Su or Sp ability, the learner gets a +4 bonus to the Knowledge check to learn that ability.

If the learner is attacked with an Su or Sp ability by a monster currently affected by Lancelet, he gets a +4 bonus on the Knowledge check to learn that ability.

If the learner is attacked with an Su or Sp ability by a monster currently affected by Lancelet while observing, the learner gets a +8 bonus to the Knowledge check to learn that ability.

Peep (Ex): At 2nd level, the learner gains the ability to judge an opponent’s or monster’s capabilities. As a standard action, the learner makes a Sense Motive check, opposed by the target’s Bluff check. If the learner succeeds, he determines the target’s current BAB, AC, and hit points. If the learner fails, he cannot attempt to use this ability on that opponent again for the rest of that day.

Effects that prevent the creature from being scryed also prevent the learner from using Peep on it.

Conversion (Su): At 4th level, the learner has mastered the art of converting his arcane energy into a shield to enable him to survive the abilities of monsters. In effect, he gains a DR equal to his Wisdom modifier. Each time this DR prevents damage, he loses spell slots whose total spell level is equal to the amount of damage the DR prevented (0th level spells count as half a level); the learner chooses the spell slots he loses in this way. If the learner has no spell slots of a level higher than 0th, he loses this DR. Each time he is dealt damage, the learner chooses whether or not to activate this ability.

The DR granted by this ability cannot be penetrated (it is DR x/-).

A learner suffers no adverse effects from losing spell slots in this way.

Scan (Su): At 6th level, the learner has become adept at judging his opponents and monsters. As a standard action, the learner makes a Sense Motive check, opposed by the target’s Bluff check. If the learner succeeds, he determines the target’s current BAB, current and max hit points, AC, current saving throw bonuses, and any spells the target is currently affected by. If the learner fails, he cannot attempt to use this ability or Peep on that opponent again for the rest of that day.

Effects that prevent the creature from being scryed also prevent the learner from using Scan on it.

Resistance (Ex): At 8th level, the learner begins to become more resistant to conditions that would impede him and his ability to learn. He gains a +2 resistance bonus on saving throws against the following conditions: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned.

Continual Observation (Ex): At 10th level, the learner has mastered the art of being continually alert. He is therefore considered observing at all times, and he does not need to take a standard action to observe; however, the maximum range for continual observation is 5 feet/2 learner levels.

The learner can still observe as a standard action.

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Blue Spells
Gaining a blue spell is detailed in Observation, above.

Casting a Blue Spell
All blue spells take a standard action to cast. Each blue spell has a spell level, and the learner casts the spell by expending a spell slot of the appropriate level or higher.

A blue spell is the exact same ability as the ability the monster it was learned from used. For instance, the trill cast by a learner who learned it from an frost worm will function exactly like the frost worm's trill ability. Only (Su) and (Sp) abilities can be learned as blue spells; however, Sp abilities can only be learned if the ability's entry's name is "<Ability Name> (Sp)", and they cannot be learned if they are listed under "Spell-like Abilities", "Spells", or "Psionics" (for example, a mind flayer's mind blast or an aasimar's daylight ability can be learned, as they are listed as "Mind Blast (Sp)" and "Daylight (Sp)"). In addition, the learner cannot learn blue spells that summon creatures (for example, a learner cannot learn summon tanar'i or summon slaad).

All blue spells have a Somatic component; blue spells that deal with sonic energy also have a Verbal component. No blue spells have Material component. A blue spell that is learned from a monster that requires the monster to hold or posess a specific item requires that item as an Arcane Focus; the item the learner uses must be the item that the monster used, and cannot be a replica or facsimile - it must be the exact item.

Blue spells that do not have a definite duration listed in their description, or that are continuously active, last for 1 round/caster level when cast. If the monster's ability is dependent upon the monster doing something (a frost worm's trill), then the learner must concentrate on the spell to maintain its effect. If the monster can only use a certain ability a certain number of times per day, or if it must wait to use it again (a dragon's breath weapon, a tiefling's darkness), the learner ignores these restrictions.

All blue spells have a level. As no class other than the learner can access blue spells, blue spells do not have different spell levels for different classes.

If a blue spell has an effect that is based upon the monster's HD, use the learner's caster level as his HD. When the blue spell references the monster using it (a frost worm's trill), replace the monster's name with "the learner" (using the frost worm's trill as an example, this would mean that the learner is immune to his own use of trill).

If a blue spell has a specific range listed in its description, the learner uses that range; otherwise, all blue spells have a range of Close (25 feet + 5 feet/2 caster levels). If a monster's ability originates from the monster itself (a mind flayer's mind blast, a frost worm's trill), then the blue spell has a range of Personal. Blue spells that depend upon touch or an attack have a range of Touch.

If a blue spell allows for a saving throw, the learner sets the saving throw at 10 + blue spell's spell level + the learner’s Charisma modifier.

If a blue spell has a condition to be used that the learner could not meet (a bralani's whirlwind blast, a lycanthrope's curse of lycanthropy), he ignores such restrictions; however, if the ability depends upon a certain attack form, the learner must still attack the target (a lycanthrope's curse of lycanthropy requires an attack with a certain attack form of a hybrid or animal form of the lycanthrope; when the learner uses curse of lycanthropy, he does not need to be in the animal or hybrid form or use the attack form mentioned, but he must still make an attack).

All blue spells are arcane spells that are part of the Universal school. All blue spells that directly affect creatures allow for Spell Resistance.

Blue spells cannot be countered. Blue spells are affected as normal spells by dispel magic and anti-magic field, as well as similar spells.

To apply metamagic spells to a blue spell, you add spell levels to its normal spell level as normal.

Blue spells cannot be used to make standard magic items.
 
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I have three points left, I think.

We've cleared before that class abilities cannot be learned. Maybe it should be reflected by a comment that only inherent abilities can be learned.
I would assume that the time to learn DR (or any defensive Su ability) is when the creature is hit.
Does the Lore ability of the Learner stack with the abilities of bards or loremasters?

One thing we need to remember with this class - it will likely shape other proposals, namely monster proposals and adventure proposals. With a learner around, monster proposals will often generate new blue spells. In adventure proposals, the DM might want to use a monster from another source, as we've already seen. Those monsters might also introduce new blue spells.

That said, I vote Yes for the learner.
 

I'm going to propose some language clarification and such in a bit.

For now, I ask about Sorcerers and learning Blue Spells above a level they can cast. How does that work? With a Wizard, they can have higher level spells in a spellbook, I realize. That, however, has other issues. First being that a Wizard is still limited in the maximum number of blue spells known... but how is that treated with respect to un-learning spells from your spellbook? If you've solved this in the description, I apparently missed it, but for now it seems confusing.
 

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