(Proposal) Learner Prestige Class

[GnomeWorks]

Um... that would be the final version, I suppose, since no one has commented for a month.

So I'll go post in GD saying as such now...

 

[Erekose13]

The PrC looks good to me, should we have another look through the Blue Spells and round them out a bit? Probably good to have another set of eyes to help us go through it as well.

 

[GnomeWorks]

That would probably be a good idea.

When a Judge pops on over, s/he can take a gander at what we've got... if s/he has any issues, we can fix them then.

I just want to get this thing back into consideration.

 

[Erekose13]

yeah mine too. but seems like LEW is going through a revival/reorganization so hopefully all proposals will soon be considered.

 

[Creamsteak]

I love the blue spell magic list you linked. Truly a good set of work, and I'm sorry that I didn't have time to help out with it. I'll pour through the list when I get some time, or when I get a better internet connection.

I was spoiled with the broadband for a while, and now I just can't tolerate my old modem .

 

[Pbartender]

I haven't looked at the blue spell list (I might leave it for others to go over), but the PrC looks all right. Complicated, elaborate, and requiring quite a bit of extra paperwork perhaps, but that's certainly no reason to shoot it down... Just my personal preference.

A few things I did notice...

Under Observation: All of the "Will saves" to learn a blue spell should be changed to "Knowledge checks".

Under Observation: The +1 bonus for failing doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and requires the player to keep track of a multitude of bonuses for a potentially long time. I'd suggest either putting an "until the end of the current encounter" qualifier on it, or getting rid of it completely.

Under Conversion: You need to add a few extra words to the phrase, "the learner chooses he loses"... I think you meant to say something like, "the learner chooses which spell levels he looses".

 

[Knight Otu]

A few comments...

Are you sure you want the Knowledge (Nature) requirement to be 6? You could propably get there with multiclassing, and that might be your intention, but a straight sorceror would need to be 9th level. A straight bard, on the other hand, could enter at 5th level.

You might want to make it clear in the Spells per Day description that the Learner does not receive extra spells known, as you say in the beginning of your post.

You should likely remove animals from the Knowledge (nature) list. While they fit there, I don't think there are any animals with Su or Sp abilities.
On the other hand, you could potentially allow Ex abilities to be learned, but I don't see that as fitting.

Due to the way the save DCs are calculated, it is easier to learn Sp abilities than Su abilities. Just as a note.

A general thing, don't add Xth level in brackets to the ability name, especially when you also note the level at which it is gained in the text. Instead, use the brackets to note if an ability is Ex, Su or Sp in nature.
Observation (Ex)
Lore
Lancelet (Sp)
Peep (Su)
Conversion (Su)
Scan (Su)
Resistance (Potentially Ex, otherwise natural)
Continual Observation (Ex)

. In order to use the Lancelet, the learner must sacrifice a spell slot of any level; the Lancelet lasts for 1 round + 1 round/spell level.

With sacrifice, you mean expend the spell slot for the day?

A personal preference, but peep and scan seem to relay information that is normally intangible to characters.

Conversion is supposed to be DR/-, right?

It would be very useful to have the list of blue spells as fully written out spells, just as they would appear in the PHB.

You'll want to remove the references to creatures not in the SRD, such as mind flayers.

You've written the class from the perspective that all blue spell would come from monsters. I think there are a few abilities that come from classes that would make interesting blue spells.

The spell levels given for blue spells are estimates, correct?

In addition, the learner cannot learn blue spells that summon creatures (for example, a learner cannot learn summon tanar'i or summon slaad).

There are a few Blue spells in the list that summon creatures.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Whohoo! Comments!

I'll try to answer your questions in chronological order...

Under Observation: All of the "Will saves" to learn a blue spell should be changed to "Knowledge checks".

That they should be. Sorry about that.

Under Observation: The +1 bonus for failing doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and requires the player to keep track of a multitude of bonuses for a potentially long time. I'd suggest either putting an "until the end of the current encounter" qualifier on it, or getting rid of it completely.

The bonus is supposed to last for that combat, and that combat only.

Under Conversion: You need to add a few extra words to the phrase, "the learner chooses he loses"... I think you meant to say something like, "the learner chooses which spell levels he looses".

Oops, grammar problem... sorry about that.

Are you sure you want the Knowledge (Nature) requirement to be 6? You could propably get there with multiclassing, and that might be your intention, but a straight sorceror would need to be 9th level. A straight bard, on the other hand, could enter at 5th level.

Knowledge (nature) and Knowledge (arcana) are both integral to the class. Nature represents knowledge of the natural world - which is important, since the learner deals with that a lot - and arcana deals with magic, which is the learner's forte.

Yes, bards can get it earlier than other classes... but they can also only get up to 6th level blue spells. That's a balancing factor, right there.

You might want to make it clear in the Spells per Day description that the Learner does not receive extra spells known, as you say in the beginning of your post.

Sorry, should've clarified that.

You should likely remove animals from the Knowledge (nature) list. While they fit there, I don't think there are any animals with Su or Sp abilities.
On the other hand, you could potentially allow Ex abilities to be learned, but I don't see that as fitting.

Animals and humanoids both have very few (if any) Su or Sp abilities to learn. However, they were included for completeness' sake, just in case.

Ex abilities can't be learned by learners, and I don't see them being able to do that. Learners deal primarily with abilities that draw on magical energy - in spell form or otherwise - and Ex abilities don't do that.

Due to the way the save DCs are calculated, it is easier to learn Sp abilities than Su abilities. Just as a note.

That's a problem.

Um... I just looked, and I don't follow how you got that. Both have a learning DC 10 + one-half monster HD + monster's Cha mod.

All possible modifiers to the learn roll apply to learning both Su and Sp abilities.

Is there something I missed?

Lancelet (Sp)
Peep (Su)
Conversion (Su)
Scan (Su)
Resistance (Potentially Ex, otherwise natural)
Continual Observation (Ex)

Sorry about the "(level): ...at level..." thing.

All those look right to me. Resistance is Ex.

With sacrifice, you mean expend the spell slot for the day?

Yes.

A personal preference, but peep and scan seem to relay information that is normally intangible to characters.

It's supposed to represent the ability to estimate your foe's abilities by studying them. The best way to handle it, IMO, was to allow the learner to figure out some mechanical elements.

Conversion is supposed to be DR/-, right?

Yep.

It would be very useful to have the list of blue spells as fully written out spells, just as they would appear in the PHB.

Would be very useful, but also very much time-consuming. I may get around to doing that at some point this summer, given that I don't have school.

You'll want to remove the references to creatures not in the SRD, such as mind flayers.

That would be a good idea.

You've written the class from the perspective that all blue spell would come from monsters. I think there are a few abilities that come from classes that would make interesting blue spells.

I don't like the idea, not one bit. That would overpower the class beyond belief.

If we did that, the learner could learn *any* Sp or Su ability that any other character could have. The learner could suddenly wildshape, turn undead, become immune to aging... the list goes on and on.

While I admit that it would be very interesting, it isn't the purpose of this class. Adding it would just make the learner very broken.

The spell levels given for blue spells are estimates, correct?

If you mean they're estimates in that we looked at the abilities and assigned them a spell level, yes.

If you mean that they're just guidelines for what the spell level of that blue spell should be, no.

There are a few Blue spells in the list that summon creatures.

I did notice that, and they shouldn't be there.

 

[Knight Otu]

Knowledge (nature) and Knowledge (arcana) are both integral to the class. Nature represents knowledge of the natural world - which is important, since the learner deals with that a lot - and arcana deals with magic, which is the learner's forte.

I didn't argue that, I just wanted to note that the 6 ranks might turn off sorcerors from the class.

Animals and humanoids both have very few (if any) Su or Sp abilities to learn. However, they were included for completeness' sake, just in case.

A few humanoids do, but I'm not aware of any animals that have Su or Sp abilities, outside the recent Dark Sun Dungeon magazines. But for completeness, it's ok.

Ex abilities can't be learned by learners, and I don't see them being able to do that. Learners deal primarily with abilities that draw on magical energy - in spell form or otherwise - and Ex abilities don't do that.

As I said, it doesn't seem fitting to learn Ex abilities.

Um... I just looked, and I don't follow how you got that. Both have a learning DC 10 + one-half monster HD + monster's Cha mod.

Here's the relevant quote from the SRD:

The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier.

It's supposed to represent the ability to estimate your foe's abilities by studying them. The best way to handle it, IMO, was to allow the learner to figure out some mechanical elements.

OK. I'll be able to live with that. As long as it doesn't reveal class identity.

I don't like the idea, not one bit. That would overpower the class beyond belief.

Yeah, I agree. I spouted that out before I went to read what could be learned this way. Ignore that particular comment.

If you mean they're estimates in that we looked at the abilities and assigned them a spell level, yes.

That's what I meant.

 

[RillianPA]

I am going to go out on a limb and make some suggestions. Unfortunately my comments are coming very late in the game, and may not be of interest (as I suspect that GnomeWorks is very invested in his concept), but I have some experience with this type of thing, and hope I can help.

The very first PrC I wrote (called the Fighting Master, and complete with enjoyable quotes from the fight between Inigo and the Man in Black) was an attempt to capture the abilities of a person who had studied all the arts of combat, and all the various schools of thought pertaining to combat, and had learned both the strengths and weaknesses of those schools, and thus which school to use against each. This led me to build a very complex PrC and everytime he used a power, it would take 3-4 rolls plus a lot of math to determine the result. All in all, while the concept was interesting and reasonable, the execution was annoying and difficult. The purpose of this seemingly unrelated story is to suggest that maybe you have made things a little to complex.

In reality, you are looking to do 2 things: create (and have approved) a selection of spells based on spell-like and supernatural abilities of monsters; and create a prestige class that is good at learning/developing these spells. Instead of trying to do the 2 things as one, why not separate them, and achieve them separately?

It seems perfectly reasonable to develop a set of spells based on creature spell-like and supernatural abilities. In fact, you will find that the majority of those abilities already exist as spells. So how are blue spells different from normal spells? As far as I can tell, you have introduced no real differences from normal spells: blue spells are affected by SR, they can be dispelled, they have casting time and components (somatic +), etc. The only rule difference I can find is that blue spells cannot be countered, which it seems could easily be changed to "blue spells can rarely be countered, since so few casters know the same spell". So what I would recommend is that you build a list of blue spells, that anyone can learn, and that are balanced for use by any wizard/sorcerer (only bother with alternate spell levels for other classes if you care).

Having created the spell list, there is no reason why there should not still be a PrC that specializes in learning/developing unusual spells. This class might even be able to learn these special blue spells as lower level spells (this might be too powerful, depends on the levels initially assigned to the spells, maybe a better bet would be that they have increased power casting them, like the bonuses from certain domains). However, the Learner should also be good at learning ANY spell. So, assuming the Learner is originally a wizard, he might see an arcane caster throw any spell, and then say "Hey, I like that, think I will add it to my book." Not an immense power for most campaigns, but very nice nonetheless. (Observation and Lancelet could be easily adjusted to work on anything)

Following this path not only creates a number of spells for the use of everyone, but a PrC that is both simpler, and has a wider appeal. The other advantage of this concept is that it places less dependancy on the DM(s) to provide you with monsters from whom to steal magical abilties, without which your PrC gains no powers at all.

I hope that this is not entirely useless, and good luck with your PrC