Thomas Hobbes said:
I like the list. Do you think this makes them too skill-intensive, though? What should the DC be at now?
It's only four skills - that's not too bad. Probably do base DC 10... they only get 4 skill points at each level (not counting any Int bonuses), so if they try to expand their other skills, then they'd have to go with not upping one of those.
I think it works with four. Fewer than that, I'd say it should go back up to DC 15... more than four, I think that it's a little unwieldy. But with the number of skill points they get at each level being equal to the number of skills they need, I think it should be fine.
Pyrex said:
I like it GW, it keeps getting better.
Thanks.
I'm liking how the spell slot cost system is looking, and though it's still a little rough (as you aptly pointed out
), I think it will do fine once we smooth things out.
Pyrex said:
But I think you need a better method of determining slot cost instead of just using the creature's CR. A creatures abilities don't always neatly line up w/ it's CR. Ethereal Jaunt for a 3rd level spell slot (from the Ethereal Filcher) is a little too cheap.
Similarly, Detect Magic for a 3rd level slot (also from the Filcher) is too expensive.
The slot cost should be the same as the spell (or psionic power) the blue ability most closely resembles.
Also I'm a little worried about (comparatively) low-level blue mages using multiple low-level slots to pull off powerful effects they shouldn't be capable of yet. (a 5th level character casting Mind Blast is just wrong...)
Hrm...
For the mind flayer example, I'll say that a 5th-level character shouldn't have it, and that's the DM's problem. A 5th-level char shouldn't have an ability from a CR 8 creature. Also, do note that, even if this does happen, that the learner could probably only do that
once each day, possibly twice if he's got a really nice Cha. Pulling off one
mind blast each day is nicer than what most arcane or divine casters can throw around, but they can throw around those slightly weaker abilities a lot more often than the learner can throw around a
mind blast (at 5th, anyway).
For the filcher - I agree, some abilities don't quite match up. My main issue was
quickness from the choker... gaining the broken part of
haste for only two spell slots is just evil.
I have an idea of how to handle this... I'm going to start rambling now, so it'll be rough.
The Su or Sp ability has a spell slot cost equal to the CR of the monster it was learned from. In the case of abilities that have a caster level specifically listed, then the spell slot cost of the ability is equal to that caster level - the learner's learner level.
Example: A 2nd-level learner (6th-level character) learns the ethereal jaunt
ability from an ethereal marauder. If the ability did not list a caster level for the ability, the ability would cost 3 spell levels in spell slots. However, because it does (CL 15th), then the ability costs 13 spell levels worth of spell slots: 15 for the base cost, minus 2 for the learner's 2 learner levels.
Note that if a blue spell has an effective CL of 0th for purposes of spell slot costs, then it still requires at least one 0th-level spell slot to cast.
At higher levels, the ability becomes cheaper, but the spell is only 8th IIRC, so having it cost 14 for a 1st-level learner and 5 for a 10th-level isn't too big of a problem - it fixes the issue of it being 3 for a learner, period, though, which is an improvement.
If a monster's ability indicates that the ability works similarly to a spell, but does not list a caster level, use the creature's CR as the spell slot cost.
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Right now, I don't know if this would work - it's starting to get a little unwieldy. While I'd like to make it so that everything is covered equally, I'm also a little worried about how clunky the mechanics are... I'd like for the whole system to be streamlined, so the DM has as little extra work as possible when dealing with a learner character.
Also remember that some abilities that work like spells use them more effectively than normal spellcasters could. For instance, the
sleep ray from a gauth beholder works a lot better than the normal
sleep spell - that's why I said that if the spell doesn't list a CL, use the monster's CR as the spell slot cost. In most instances, it works out a lot better than saying that it's equal to the spell mentioned in the ability.
Of course, there are probably a few problematic areas left... most notably, I don't quite know what to do about the choker's
quickness ability, and others like it (if any exist). I'm open to ideas.
