Proposal: Minotaur - MM, (Dragon,) PH3 - which one(s) allow for L4W

[LadyLaw]

As I said, I'd prefer a policy that MM races are always retired when PC races come out without any regard for the specific changes involved. And your post, and most of this thread, is a big reason why. I'd prefer to have a general policy than to have to debate the subjective merits of different versions each time this happens.

I suppose minotaur is weird in that we're apparently getting TWO new versions - Dragon and PH3. But even if Dragon versions of races might be questionable, I think the policy would definitely make sense for anything that comes in a Player's Handbook.

I have to agree with this. Once a player race is published in a Players Handbook, then it seems to me that it is the intention for that to replace any previous version (Dragon or otherwise) of the race for the purposes of PCs. However, I see no reason that race descriptions in the Monster Manual should not continue to be utilized by DMs as NPCs as that is their intended purpose.

 

[garyh]

As I said, I'd prefer a policy that MM races are always retired when PC races come out without any regard for the specific changes involved. And your post, and most of this thread, is a big reason why. I'd prefer to have a general policy than to have to debate the subjective merits of different versions each time this happens.

I suppose minotaur is weird in that we're apparently getting TWO new versions - Dragon and PH3. But even if Dragon versions of races might be questionable, I think the policy would definitely make sense for anything that comes in a Player's Handbook.

The reason this is such an issue for the minotaur (and eventually bugbear) is that it is the ONLY case were things were taken away from the MM version. Every other race that has gone from MM to PHB/Dragon/EPG/FRPG has had everything the MM had, PLUS a lot of new bells and whistles. That's what rubs some of us the wrong way. There's no reason to want a MM warforged, drow, or doppleganger. Those races all received significant boosts when fully stated up, and had nothing removed.

 

[elecgraystone]

And your post, and most of this thread, is a big reason why. I'd prefer to have a general policy than to have to debate the subjective merits of different versions each time this happens.

Yeah that'd solve it since I don't think anyone would ever play a minotaur... I'd be happy to have a general rule that we auto except any race upgrade that doesn't take anything away from the MM race.

Garyh has it totally right. There isn't an issue with any of the other MM upgraded races because they haven't been neutered. Any other race, it's pure upgrade. Why NOT switch. They all received significant boosts while the 'upgraded' minotaur was, IMO, made a race that no one will want to play. Every other race you see people saying 'Oh, I want to make one of those up now' after looking at the new features. Not so with the minotaur with the warforged and Goliath being SO much better. In fact the MM warforged is better than the dragon minotaur...

We could always hope the PHB3 makes this all moot with it's minotaur awesomeness. I'm not holding my breath though.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Again, that's no different from any awesome power getting neutered.

I had Life Transference for my cleric. Being a tough dwarf, I thought it was awesome as an encounter power. It got downgraded to a Daily power. I don't think it cuts it as a daily power.

I either had the choice of living with the weaker version or swapping the power. I chose to swap.

Same for minotaurs; accept the new version or retire the PC.

I can kinda see the 'Dragon Magazine isn't core' argument, but when the Minotaur is on PHB3, that's that.

 

[garyh]

Again, that's no different from any awesome power getting neutered.

I had Life Transference for my cleric. Being a tough dwarf, I thought it was awesome as an encounter power. It got downgraded to a Daily power. I don't think it cuts it as a daily power.

I either had the choice of living with the weaker version or swapping the power. I chose to swap.

Same for minotaurs; accept the new version or retire the PC.

I can kinda see the 'Dragon Magazine isn't core' argument, but when the Minotaur is on PHB3, that's that.

I would argue that retiring a PC is a MUCH bigger deal than retraining a utility power. I really can't see the two as comparable.

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

Again, that's no different from any awesome power getting neutered.

I had Life Transference for my cleric. Being a tough dwarf, I thought it was awesome as an encounter power. It got downgraded to a Daily power. I don't think it cuts it as a daily power.

I either had the choice of living with the weaker version or swapping the power. I chose to swap.

Same for minotaurs; accept the new version or retire the PC.

I can kinda see the 'Dragon Magazine isn't core' argument, but when the Minotaur is on PHB3, that's that.

You really don't see the difference? Items and powers can be changed without completely altering your character. Like you said, you were able to swap out the power. You did not have to retire Hadrak and create a new character in response to the errata.

That being said, I mostly agree with you. I'd like to say, "the PHB3 minotaur is the only official one. Accept it or retire." However, given that I haven't seen it yet, I'm going to withhold judgment.

 

[renau1g]

The reason this is such an issue for the minotaur (and eventually bugbear) is that it is the ONLY case were things were taken away from the MM version. Every other race that has gone from MM to PHB/Dragon/EPG/FRPG has had everything the MM had, PLUS a lot of new bells and whistles. That's what rubs some of us the wrong way. There's no reason to want a MM warforged, drow, or doppleganger. Those races all received significant boosts when fully stated up, and had nothing removed.

Well I don't know if it was a significant boost for the doppelgagner. They traded Change Shape for Changeling Disguise. Before they had a +20 on bluff checks to imitate someone, but now only get +5. Part of that trade they got the encounter power to bluff an enemy into granting CA TENT. Oh, they also got some flexibility in choosing either Dex or Int for the +2. I really like that about PHB3, I wonder if they'll carry it back for any other core races

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

I would argue that retiring a PC is a MUCH bigger deal than retraining a utility power. I really can't see the two as comparable.

You really don't see the difference?

It's a different magnitude but the principle involved is identical.

Once we have a full write-up, we have to accept it. IMO, Not to do so because we don't think it's powerful enough is juvenile. We'll see what the PHB 3 Minotaur is like, but Dragon Magazine's is a serviceable race. Goring charge with goring shove, for example, is rather amusing. Melee only opponents lose a full turn to it. Once a fight, it's fairly powerful. It's your right to think it's not powerful enough compared to other races, but that's not much of an argument not to recognize that this is the D&D 4e minotaur.

 

[renau1g]

But until phb3 comes out it's a moot point as not all players have ddi, so you can't force a player using the core books to change to a source he doesn't have, especially if a 'soft' cover book like Dragon.

 

[elecgraystone]

Again, that's no different from any awesome power getting neutered.

No, see I'm talking about the race being neutered. I don't care if it keeps oversized. If it can stand alongside other races as a viable option I'm already on the record as not having an issue with it. So far minotaur doesn't.

Dragon Magazine's [minotaur] is a serviceable race.

Well that's the issue isn't it. Many people don't agree.

Goring charge with goring shove, for example, is rather amusing.

I'd rather have effective and useful instead of amusing... How is a push one amusing? Granted a push one is ok if it wasn't attached to a lackluster racial. Now if you mean Opportunity Gore, it's the one thing they did right. However I think I can count on one hand the number of OA's I've seen enemies provoke, mostly from animal and such. Most creatures don't provoke OA's with or without the feat, at least from what I've seen. If you can find a way to force an OA, then this could be really good.

However then I have to look at other things that work close to what this combo does.

Grappling Strike: [W] damage and grab until end of your next turn. Can be used with OA. Much better possible damage with less rider. However it's a bit more sticky since a standard action is needed to escape and they already used an action to provoke, leaving them with no movement left. Also you can drag the creature when your turn comes up and move them into damaging terrains. You either damage them or they go prone plus you control where they end up. And no feat cost. Win-win.

Heavy blade opportunity: the dex is doable for a STR/CON race and this opens up every at will. paragon though. Even if you take Opportunity Gore retain for this at 11th.

Various style MP2 feats: Various encounter powers used for 'attacks as a result of your Combat Challenge class feature or in place of a melee basic attack when making an opportunity attack.' Takes 2 feats but gives a LOT more punch than Opportunity Gore + another minotaur gore feat.

Of note is the NINTH LEGION STYLE feat. The starting feat lets a warlord use direct the strike with an OA. That power gives a basic attack to an ally and the follow up allows encounters like above. Lots of cool options there.


These are just off the top of my head (just read MP2 so those popped into my head.). I know I made a similar list of things before MP2 though. I can't see using this feat past heroic (and even before that it's iffy) and that's the only positive thing I've seen from the race.