Proposal: Minotaur - MM, (Dragon,) PH3 - which one(s) allow for L4W

[evilbob]

The reason this is such an issue for the minotaur (and eventually bugbear) is that it is the ONLY case were things were taken away from the MM version.

To me, this is an excellent argument for not allowing the old version of the minotaur. WotC has released a large amount of unbalanced material. This is not my opinion; I think we can all agree on that. WotC has also gone back and updated or errata'd a lot of this stuff. Minotaurs with oversized weapons is one.


Ultimately, tho, there are multiple different arguments going on here, not the least of which is "one published version of the minotaur race is inferior to another". There is also the "some PCs would have to update their character and I don't know if that's fair" argument, and then there is the implied but not explicit "would it be ok to retrain a race choice if your race were significantly altered" bit. All this alongside "do we want multiple minotaur races" and "how many house rules is ok" and "how can we reconcile two different minotaurs". This thread is getting confusing because these very different arguments are getting all mixed up.

In my opinion:
- Is one source better/worse than another? Immaterial. One is "official," and using the other is "officially" a house rule.
- Should PCs be allowed to swap races when their race is changed? I say: why not?
- What would make life easier and cut down on these threads both now and in the future? A specific stance and fewer house rules. The simplest path (which will not please everyone) is to update all minotaurs to the newest rules. I think allowing folks to retrain if their race gets changed is a fair response to that.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

No, see I'd rather have effective and useful instead of amusing... How is a push one amusing?

Push one from the feat combined with prone from the goring charge equals a wasted turn for a melee opponent with no reach. He has to spend a move to get up and then isn't adjacent to you. He can't charge you because you are not two square away. I think it's a very amusing outcome. I'd also call that effective.

 

[Oni]

I haven't read the whole thread, so if I'm just repeating something has been said previous please forgive me.

IMHO a race being updated in a new release is essentially the same as errata and should be adopted automatically as it is a correction of previous material, and that a proposal is, and should be, necessary to keep using the older pre-change material and unless such a proposal passes the old version should pass from play just like any other outdated rule. This keeps things nice and neat and tidy.

[edit: Obviously the change was felt to be necessary or they would not have made it, and so if the proposal is to allow the old rules to stand I would urge the judges to vote no.]

 

[covaithe]

New player: "I just bought the PHB and MM and I'm super excited about my new character. It's a minotaur! I'm so excited, that I carefully checked the errata before submitting him, just to make sure everything was okay. I can't wait to start!"

Judges: "Your character is illegal, because WotC published a new version in some obscure place you've never heard of. If you want to fix it, you'll have to pay more money."

That gets a big fat no from me.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Judges: "Your character is illegal, because WotC published a new version in some obscure place you've never heard of. If you want to fix it, you'll have to pay more money."

That gets a big fat no from me.

That's the argument for Dragon Magazine, but what of the PHB 3? It'll be just as obscure as any of the other core book

 

[Oni]

New player: "I just bought the PHB and MM and I'm super excited about my new character. It's a minotaur! I'm so excited, that I carefully checked the errata before submitting him, just to make sure everything was okay. I can't wait to start!"

Judges: "Your character is illegal, because WotC published a new version in some obscure place you've never heard of. If you want to fix it, you'll have to pay more money."

That gets a big fat no from me.

Dropping the MM version of the minotaur from the allowed races list would fix that problem.

 

[evilbob]

Judges WotC: "Your character is illegal, because WotC published a new version in some obscure place you've never heard of. If you want to fix it, you'll have to pay more money."

There is a big difference between leveling a complaint against WotC's practices - which is pretty legit - and leveling a complaint at people just trying to make running a PbP forum easier.

 

[renau1g]

FWIW this proposal has now already passed so there's officially two options for L4W minotaurs, the long-armed or short-armed.

 

[covaithe]

Dropping the MM version of the minotaur from the allowed races list would fix that problem.

That's a fair point, that I hadn't thought of.

That's the argument for Dragon Magazine, but what of the PHB 3? It'll be just as obscure as any of the other core book

That's not. I'm just as unhappy with requiring people to buy PHB3 as with requiring people to buy DDI. You should be able to participate fully in L4W with only the PHB1.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

That's not. I'm just as unhappy with requiring people to buy PHB3 as with requiring people to buy DDI. You should be able to participate fully in L4W with only the PHB1.

Well, if you require the PHB2 to play a sorcerer, I don't see why you wouldn't require PHB3 to play a minotaur.