Proposal: Minotaur - MM, (Dragon,) PH3 - which one(s) allow for L4W

[Darksteed]

I know I'm chiming in a little late on this one, but the whole thing about people not having access to DDI and certain books is really moot argument.

ANYONE with a connection to the internet, access to google, and about 10 minutes of time can find ANY of the books in PDF form one way or another.

Really not that hard.

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

You really shouldn't be suggesting illegal courses of action here.

 

[elecgraystone]

I know I'm chiming in a little late on this one, but the whole thing about people not having access to DDI and certain books is really moot argument.

A person should be able to use the basic core books plus the errata to make a character. Doing so leads to the MM minotaur and NOT the Dragon minotaur. That's an issue. We can't expect or require that people break the law to make a character here.

This is why I've stated many times that WOTC should just make a quick MM errata then everyone would be on the same page. A 'replace oversized with x'.

 

[evilbob]

And what I understand is that there is nothing to errata about the MM minotaur. As a race for monsters, it will not get updated.

The minotaur race for PCs was introduced in Dragon and will be updated in the PHB3. It supersedes the MM race entirely as a PC choice. Except in this forum and other places, where it is re-introduced as a house-ruled playable race.

Trust me when I say there will never be an errata for the MM minotaur; WotC's viewpoint is that it is not necessary.


And there's no need to act illegally to play one, either. You can purchase the (outdated) books for $20-$30+ each, as everyone has to do in order to play D&D, or you can pay far, FAR less for a 1 month access to DDI and get all of the books - updated and everything.

I'll even go so far as to suggest that pirating the books isn't even worth it. Who cares about working hard to steal loads of outdated material when you can pay so little for all of it and get all their extensive changes? Heck: that might even have been WotC's plan all along: never proof-read or copy-edit anything and then let the pirates steal it, then come back and update it all and make their thefts worthless! (That last part was sarcastic.)

 

[renau1g]

End of the day we have the option in L4W for the MM races which was decided when the setting was put together. That's a fact. Also, I, like many people, bought the original books when there was no DDI, it hasn't been around since 4e came out (or at least the CB hasn't) and the CB even has the other MM races in it so you can't say WOTC didn't intend for them to be an option as they're in the CHARACTER BUILDER, not the Adventure Tools.

Anyways, long story short, arguing about errata, etc won't change much. If someone makes a proposal to remove MM minotaurs from the list of racial options in the charter then we can discuss that, but anything less is kind of a waste of time.

 

[elecgraystone]

And what I understand is that there is nothing to errata about the MM minotaur. As a race for monsters, it will not get updated.

If there isn't a need for errata then it means that the MM racial stats are correct. It isn't so it does.

The minotaur race for PCs was introduced in Dragon and will be updated in the PHB3. It supersedes the MM race entirely as a PC choice.

PHB3 yes, dragon no. As dragon is an optional source, it's optionally valid. Just because it's official doesn't make it mandatory. However that doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the errata.

It's much like when they changes stealth rules. They printed them in PHB2 AND in the errata. They didn't print them in dragon and expect everyone to have them. They KNOW not everyone has DDI.

Trust me when I say there will never be an errata for the MM minotaur; WotC's viewpoint is that it is not necessary.

And from my point of view that's the wrong way to go. it insures that there will always be two versions of the race as people with only the core making up MM minotaurs. They are asking for conflict.

And there's no need to act illegally to play one, either. You can purchase the (outdated) books for $20-$30+ each, as everyone has to do in order to play D&D, or you can pay far, FAR less for a 1 month access to DDI and get all of the books - updated and everything.

Several people are on record as being unable to pay for DDI. The game should be valid using JUST the core items. You shouldn't NEED to pay for anything extra. If you can't, then that requires you get pay for extras. So since not everyone can pay for extras you are saying pay up or don't play here.

You seem to think everyone had extra cash on hand. I'm glad you do but some of us don't.

I'll even go so far as to suggest that pirating the books isn't even worth it.

I'll not comment on this. Better to just not talk about it. I see nothing gained by talking about illegal things.

 

[LadyLaw]

And what I understand is that there is nothing to errata about the MM minotaur. As a race for monsters, it will not get updated.

The minotaur race for PCs was introduced in Dragon and will be updated in the PHB3. It supersedes the MM race entirely as a PC choice. Except in this forum and other places, where it is re-introduced as a house-ruled playable race.

Trust me when I say there will never be an errata for the MM minotaur; WotC's viewpoint is that it is not necessary.

Exactly. I actually own the PHB3 now (picked it up yesterday because my LGS is a premier store - or whatever the term is) and it specifically says in the introduction to the race section that it is the versions of Minotaur and Githzerai printed in PHB3 that are meant for use by players, even though they were originally printed in the MM.

 

[elecgraystone]

in the introduction to the race section that it is the versions of Minotaur and Githzerai printed in PHB3 that are meant for use by players, even though they were originally printed in the MM.

renau1g has it right. Bugbears are in the Character Builder. By definition, it's a utility to make characters. That means that you are intended/expected to have MM races as options. That means that they expect people without DDI to do the same. So just like they update the DDI, why wouldn't the non-DDI users need an update(errata)?

We just come back to the point that no matter what is printed in PHB3 or dragon, the core user w/o DDI can only make one valid and legal minotaur, the MM one. Without errata this will always be true.

 

[garyh]

I'm pretty sure that the MM warforged was never erratad when the Dragon and then the EPG warforged were released. Of course, as I said before, it wasn't a big deal, because the Dragon and EPG warforged we pure upgrades and didn't invalidate any powers or features in the original MM listing like they did with the minotaur.

I'm also not too concerned about whether someone with only the first 3 books has trouble building a minotaur. They can't make a goliath or a shardmind or an assassin or an invoker either. That's just a fact of the WotC business model. These first 3 book players can still make a completely valid and useful character with the PHB1 classes and races, plus the MM races that haven't been changed.

My main concern through all this has been that people who chose a race at the beginning don't get screwed because their MM race had the ONE feature that WotC has decided to take away when updating to PC write-ups.

 

[LadyLaw]

WotC expects you to buy their other books though. That's all I'm saying. It's not about what is required for this site. All I'm saying is that they won't errata it because they expect you to buy all the PHBs and they print in them that it is meant to replace previous material for the purposes of players. They won't errata the MM because they still expect those rules to be utilized for monsters and NPCs as per the intent of that particular resource.

renau1g has it right. Bugbears are in the Character Builder. By definition, it's a utility to make characters. That means that you are intended/expected to have MM races as options. That means that they expect people without DDI to do the same. So just like they update the DDI, why wouldn't the non-DDI users need an update(errata)?

I'm sure that in next month's update, after the official release of PHB3, you will see the Minotaur and Githzerai options in the CB change to the PHB3 versions instead of the MM versions because that is what they intend for players to use.

Not everyone may be able to afford every book WotC releases, but WotC still expect you to buy them because otherwise they wouldn't print them. That's why you won't see an errata for MM in the PDF excluding the MM races for players as they are reprinted. They expect that it isn't necessary because you bought the new PHB and saw that this is the way it's meant to be for PCs from here on forward.

I'm not trying to alter the decision here, just stating my opinion that basing the argument on lack of PDF errata to the MM is off-base when their books state that the material is meant to replace previous printed material.

Differing opinions is why the judges vote on things though; and since the decision is made, there is little point in continuing to argue.