Perhaps a too long response but I said it - so feel better.
Ok, listen when I saw this Whirling Frenzy (WF) thing in the book I simply thought to myself – “Hey here is a cool option for barbarians”.
Perhaps, it would be good for us to use in LEW.
I mean as it stands there is one option for a barbarian. The archetypal, two handed axe/sword wielding, max STR sort of Nordic based barbarian.
I thought this would be neat, perhaps we could have a more DEX based, say quick striking, perhaps dual wielding, and scimitar/short sword or say hand axe wielding type barbarian. Even a short bow wielding Mongol type barbarian would fit here.
I did not whip out my handy dandy calculator and go through some number crunching because honestly, I don’t really make my decisions that way for a couple of reasons.
1) I don’t really get most math beyond the addition and subtraction needed to balance my checkbook, which I do in simple $50.00 increments BTW. I appreciate the beauty of those who can think the absolutes of math; however, this decision IMO involves a good many different things to consider other than math. (Discussion Below)
2) I really don’t care if one skill is a little more powerful than another because in the long run as much as we try D&D isn’t (and will never be) balanced at any turn. Some races are better than others in obvious ways; some feats are just superior to others in obvious ways, the same for classes and skills and so on and so forth. In short there is no perfect balance in the game and there never will be. (Discussion Below)
So the discussion…as for what IMO needs to be considered here perhaps even more than the 1-2hp difference in the amount of damage a barbarian who might ( and we may only have a couple who do) take WF is that we have no current alternate choice for barbarian type characters. It’s strength and two handed power attack or nothing.
If I were to make a barbarian with WF I would likely not max out his STR, hell I might well max DEX and use my weapon finesse instead. That way I could make a Mongol type horse archer who could take advantage of the extra attacks with his bow.
We suffer from the point buy syndrome in LEW so limited ability scores are going to prevent having a character with maxed DEX and STR and CON. I like balanced characters anyways so I’d be limited further. So the math presented in the thread makes a lot of assumptions about how people would play the characters and arrange scores along with feats etc. As I read the figures (being a math-tard of course and liekly wring somewhere) the assumption is that people would take max str just becasue its the more powerful choice. Not everyone plays that way.
Reading the above I realize that part of the problem with this proposal might be is the fact that someone must be thinking that if the skill is 1-2hp more damage on average people will just automatically take it because of the superiority of it.
I say that indicates a couple things. The major issue is a lack of respect for the community as a whole in assuming that they will take some ability regardless of concept or roll playing just to exploit the mechanic.
Do people do it? Yea some do. Will the few who do ruin the game and make it unplayable. I Doubt that a lot.
However, the question is how many; will there be so many that LEW will crash because of it? Will the parties all of the sudden become unplayable because the barbarian, their damage dealer, now deals out 1-2 hp more than he should have with the rage as written skill. I think the game will survive such trivial assaults on the mechanics of course.
I mean rage as written means the barbarian in rage already does the most damage so what’s the rub? Will the fighter suddenly whip out his calculator and say “hey you are doing 2 hp more than the other barbarian so I am now so out classed this party is no longer fun. Will the wizard quit the thief etc.?
The bottom line is; will those 2 hp break the game; will they make it unplayable; will LEW cease to be fun; will no one play any other class now that this huge +2hp powerhouse is loose in the game? I highly doubt this.
For the most part, in the LEW community from my observation, the players are fair, create good well balanced characters with decent backgrounds and use the available races, classes, skills, and abilities to support them. I think they deserve options and choices.
Who among you is so afraid that those a few extra hp will crash the community that you are willing to deny our players the option of having an alternative barbarian?
Math is great but is not the end all. Flavor, mechanics, player desire, depth of choice for the and in good measure the benefit of a doubt and player respect are all factors in this decision.
This is the last I’ll say on the matter –
Some will abuse any rule and even the SRD as we are using is chalked full of imbalanced stuff. Those players who abuse the system will be those that soon no one wants in their parties, or DM’s will fine a reason to not allow them in an adventure. They will stand out like suns in a field of black! In a way like all communities self regulation will weed out the meta-gaming, power hungry min-maxers we all love to hate.
That as a casual observer, not a member of the voting elite, I think that we (as a community thru the voting elite) sometimes are going to great lengths to try and make absolute balance in a game that is not balanced.
Choices are good and empowering the players with more of them, even if some are obviously a tiny bit superior to others, says to me that as a community we believe that the players will make good choices to be fair with one another when they play the game. As I already said – respect goes a long way.
I no longer have a dog in this fight; I don’t currently have a barbarian. If I do I’ll probably choose, because of my love of orcs, the rage as written option even if this is approved. I have lost interest in this as it seems a lot of work for little or no gain because of what I said two paragraphs above. Are we trying too hard to balance that which is inherently imbalanced? Lots of effort for a few hp here and there I think.
Its late and I been up for 39 hours training soldiers in CQB so bear with the gramar for now.
DerHauptman OUT!
