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(Proposal)Some UA OGC Stuffs

DerHauptman

First Post
I think with the one or the other limit on the rage type and the one handed weapons only it is comparable to the normal rage class ability. Which is what it should be compared to not the base line. Compare it to the rage as written. It is balanced with that. My original proposal was lost in the crash and honestly I really have no dog in the fight so I gave up.

I think its balanced I wrote some analysis back then but I think sometimes proposals are too much of a popularity contest to be worth the effort.

Just an observation, not a slanderous invitation to hijack.
 

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Erekose13

Explorer
Okay with the help of excel and a quick tutorial in probability I've run the numbers.

Assuming a 1st level barbarian with an 18 str. To hit: +5 With greataxe avg damage = 6.5+9
With normal Rage as written he gets a +4 to STR
If said barbarian is trying to hit a creature with AC 18 he has a 50% chance of hitting.
The average damage * chance of hitting = damage output = 7.75

With the Whirling Frenzy as written in UA he gets a -2 to hit and a +4 to STR and 1 extra attack.
Against the same target AC his chance of hitting increases to (1-60%*60%) = 64%.
The damage output with the same weapon is 9.92.

This is an increase of 128%. This increase will be consistent any time the chance to hit is 50%. Any increase or decrease to the chance to hit will lower that number.

So theres the numbers on Whirling Frenzy as written.

With the change suggested being "limited to one handed weapons only", that drops the average damage down only a little bit (battle axe = 4.5 avg + full 2 hd str. bonus as that is not being restricted). The chance to hit stays the same, the damage output changes to 8.64 which is still a 111% increase.

This is all assuming a 50% chance to hit base. Moving away from that number changes the damage output negatively. However, it will be greater than the regular Rage except when the to hit number is 1 higher than the number rolled (8 in our example) or within 5 of the max roll (AC 28-24).

I am postulating that the reason Flurry and Two Weapon Fighting work is that you cannot attack with the bonus to damage you gain from wielding a weapon with two hands.

In our example above if you were restricted to using that weapon one handed only then the damage per hit would be reduced to 10.5, with a damage output of 6.72, which is only 87% efficient. Which would mean it would always be a bad idea to choose Whirling Frenzy over Rage.

Does that all make sense?
 

Erekose13

Explorer
Wait no that doesn't work.
ME said:
This is all assuming a 50% chance to hit base. Moving away from that number changes the damage output negatively. However, it will be greater than the regular Rage except when the to hit number is 1 higher than the number rolled (8 in our example) or within 5 of the max roll (AC 28-24).

I am postulating that the reason Flurry and Two Weapon Fighting work is that you cannot attack with the bonus to damage you gain from wielding a weapon with two hands.

Thats all wrong... I was equating the change in percentage chance to a change in percentage damage output. I'll try to figure out where I went wrong there and see what I can find.
 

Rae ArdGaoth

Explorer
I'd just like to point out that the totems, as listed in the first post of this thread, are incorrect. For instance, the horse totem denies the barbarian the +10' movement bonus, but gives no alternate 1st level ability. I assume the judges are approving the totems as they are presented in Unearthed Arcana? If that's the case, I'll go through and find the correct versions. My barbarian might be interested in taking one of the totems.
 

Rae ArdGaoth

Explorer
Barbarian Variant: Totem Barbarian

In a barbarian-heavy campaign, you can increase the variation between barbarian characters if each barbarian tribe dedicates itself to a different totem creature, such as the bear or the jaguar. The choice of a totem must be taken at 1st level, and cannot be changed later except under extreme circumstances (such as the barbarian being adopted by another tribe).

If you use this variant, the barbarian loses one or more of the following standard class features: fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge. In place of these abilities, the barbarian gains class features as determined by his totem. All totems do not necessarily grant abilities at the same levels, nor do they all grant the same number of abilities. These class features are extraordinary abilities unless otherwise indicated.

The list of totems discussed here is by no means exhaustive. If you prefer to use other totems, you can either substitute the totem name for that of a similar creature (such as changing the Lion Totem to the Tiger Totem) or create a new set of totem abilities, using the information here as a guide.


Ape Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the ape totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* At 1st level, an ape-totem barbarian gains a climb speed equal to one-half his base land speed (round down to the nearest 5-foot interval). For instance, a human, elf, half-elf, or half-orc ape-totem barbarian has a climb speed of 15 feet, while a dwarf, gnome, or halfling ape-totem barbarian has a climb speed of 10 feet.
* At 2nd level, an ape-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.
* A 3rd level ape-totem barbarian gains Power Attack as a bonus feat.
* At 5th level, an ape-totem barbarian's climb speed equals his base land speed.

Bear Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the bear totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* A 1st-level bear-totem barbarian gains Toughness as a bonus feat.
* At 2nd level, a bear-totem barbarian gains Improved Grapple as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites.
* A 3rd-level bear-totem barbarian gains Great Fortitude as a bonus feat.
* Beginning at 5th level, a bear-totem barbarian gains a +4 bonus on grapple checks when raging.

Boar Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the boar totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* When raging, a 1st-level boar-totem barbarian is treated as having the Diehard feat, even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites.
* At 3rd level and higher, a boar-totem barbarian's rage lasts for 2 rounds longer than normal.
* Beginning at 7th level, a boar-totem barbarian's damage reduction is 1 point higher than the normal value. Thus, at 7th level, a boar-totem barbarian's damage reduction is 2/-, and it rises by 1 point every three levels thereafter.

Dragon Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the dragon totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* A 1st-level dragon-totem barbarian gains Blind-Fight as a bonus feat.
* At 2nd level, a dragon-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on saves against paralysis and sleep effects.
* At 5th level, a dragon-totem barbarian gains the frightful presence ability. The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 barbarian level + barbarian's Cha modifier.

Eagle Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the eagle totem does not gain the standard fast movement and trap sense barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* At 1st level, an eagle-totem barbarian's keen vision grants him a +2 bonus on Spot checks.
* An eagle-totem barbarian gains Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat at 3rd level.

Horse Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the horse totem does not gain the standard uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* At 2nd level, a horse-totem barbarian gains Run as a bonus feat.
* A 3rd-level horse-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on Handle Animal checks made with regard to horses and a +2 bonus on Ride checks made to ride a horse.
* At 5th level, a horse-totem barbarian gains Endurance as a bonus feat.

Jaguar Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the jaguar totem represents the "standard" barbarian and gains the standard barbarian class features.
Lion Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the lion totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* At 1st level, a lion-totem barbarian gains Run as a bonus feat.
* A 2nd-level lion-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on Hide checks.
* A 5th-level lion-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on damage rolls whenever he charges.

Serpent Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the serpent totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* At 1st level, a serpent-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves against poison.
* A 2nd-level serpent-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on Move Silently checks.
* At 3rd level, a serpent-totem barbarian gains Improved Grapple as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites.
* A serpent-totem barbarian gains Improved Initiative as a bonus feat at 5th level.

Wolf Totem Class Features

A barbarian dedicated to the wolf totem does not gain the standard uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

* A 2nd-level wolf-totem barbarian gains Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites.
* A 5th-level wolf-totem barbarian gains Track as a bonus feat.

Copied verbatim from The Hypertext d20 SRD
 


Bront

The man with the probe
I noticed a few errors, but thought they wer simply typoes (as it looks like he typed it out, poor guy).

I checked UA though, no big deal. My vote stands.
 

Bront

The man with the probe
Ok, let's check this out statisticly for the Whirling frenzy. I'll do a 2 handed with normal rage, and a two handed, one handed, and light with whirl.

Greataxe (1d12), Battleaxe (1d8), and Hand Axe (1d6) all x3 crit.

5th level Barbarian, with an 18 base strength.

1H/2H is 1 handed damage over (minus) 2 handed on an average strike.
Li/2H is light weapon damage over (minus) 2 handed on an average strike
Code:
AC	1H/2H	Li/2H
10	5.75	3.66
11	4.59	2.61
12	3.44	1.57
13	3.14	1.38
14	2.83	1.18
15	2.53	0.99
16	2.23	0.80
17	1.93	0.61
18	1.62	0.41
19	1.32	0.22
20	1.02	0.03
21	0.72	-0.1
22	0.41	-0.3
23	0.11	-0.5
24	-0.19	-0.7
25	-0.49	-0.9
26	-0.80	-1.1
27	-1.10	-1.3
28	-1.40	-1.5
29	-0.66	-0.7
30	0.20	0.10
31	0.28	0.18
[B]Total	27.46	6.26[/B]
I did a total, because in general, the total should be close to 0. It's not, obviously.

Let's try powerattacking for with the greataxe, see if that helps.
Code:
AC	1H/2H	Li/2H
10	1.57	-0.52
11	1.49	-0.49
12	1.40	-0.47
13	1.32	-0.44
14	1.24	-0.41
15	1.16	-0.39
16	1.07	-0.36
17	0.99	-0.33
18	0.91	-0.30
19	0.83	-0.28
20	0.74	-0.25
21	0.66	-0.22
22	0.58	-0.19
23	0.50	-0.16
24	0.41	-0.14
25	0.33	-0.11
26	0.25	-0.08
27	0.17	-0.05
28	0.08	-0.03
29	0.08	-0.03
Total	15.75	-5.25
So, normal Rage with a feat (Powerattack), Whirling frenzy is slightly inferior with light weapons, and still superior with 1 handed weapons. Without the feat, Whirling Frenzy is superior.

I'd be willing to aprove it if it only allowed the use of light weapons, or was tweeked in some other way. Without that, Whirling frenzy is completely overpowering.

Note, both tables stoped after nat 20s were required to hit for all weapons invilved, hense why the first table is slightly bigger (normal rage with no power attack has a +11 to hit, all other attacks listed had a +9).
 

Erekose13

Explorer
I've tried looking at it again and while my numbers dont come out to the same, they do have the same results. Without restricting it to light weapons, whirling frenzy is just always better than rage. Der Hauptman, did you have different numbers somewhere?
 

Rystil Arden

First Post
Yeah, originally I got him to agree to Light weapons on the grounds that Whirling Frenzy is *still* overpowered, and becomes even moreso the more powerful the character becomes, but at least since 2-handed Power Attack is unfairly powerful at 3.5, we are attaching our own little mini-hobble to prevent Whirling Frenzy from overtaking normal Rage for at least a little while. It will still do it eventually, though, rest assured :(
 

Erekose13

Explorer
Well with light weapons you cant wield them two handed or apply power attack to them. That is a big limitation for that extra attack. I was trying to see if it would work with one handed weapons and wielding them two handed. It was close, but it was still always more powerful. Power attack was something I couldn't over come either.
 


Erekose13

Explorer
make sure to grab the second one. Wyrmslayer's version had some small gaps in his transliteration of it. Whereas Rae's was copy and pasted from the UA stuff on the SRD sites.
 

DerHauptman

First Post
Perhaps a too long response but I said it - so feel better.

Ok, listen when I saw this Whirling Frenzy (WF) thing in the book I simply thought to myself – “Hey here is a cool option for barbarians”.

Perhaps, it would be good for us to use in LEW.

I mean as it stands there is one option for a barbarian. The archetypal, two handed axe/sword wielding, max STR sort of Nordic based barbarian.

I thought this would be neat, perhaps we could have a more DEX based, say quick striking, perhaps dual wielding, and scimitar/short sword or say hand axe wielding type barbarian. Even a short bow wielding Mongol type barbarian would fit here.

I did not whip out my handy dandy calculator and go through some number crunching because honestly, I don’t really make my decisions that way for a couple of reasons.

1) I don’t really get most math beyond the addition and subtraction needed to balance my checkbook, which I do in simple $50.00 increments BTW. I appreciate the beauty of those who can think the absolutes of math; however, this decision IMO involves a good many different things to consider other than math. (Discussion Below)
2) I really don’t care if one skill is a little more powerful than another because in the long run as much as we try D&D isn’t (and will never be) balanced at any turn. Some races are better than others in obvious ways; some feats are just superior to others in obvious ways, the same for classes and skills and so on and so forth. In short there is no perfect balance in the game and there never will be. (Discussion Below)

So the discussion…as for what IMO needs to be considered here perhaps even more than the 1-2hp difference in the amount of damage a barbarian who might ( and we may only have a couple who do) take WF is that we have no current alternate choice for barbarian type characters. It’s strength and two handed power attack or nothing.

If I were to make a barbarian with WF I would likely not max out his STR, hell I might well max DEX and use my weapon finesse instead. That way I could make a Mongol type horse archer who could take advantage of the extra attacks with his bow.

We suffer from the point buy syndrome in LEW so limited ability scores are going to prevent having a character with maxed DEX and STR and CON. I like balanced characters anyways so I’d be limited further. So the math presented in the thread makes a lot of assumptions about how people would play the characters and arrange scores along with feats etc. As I read the figures (being a math-tard of course and liekly wring somewhere) the assumption is that people would take max str just becasue its the more powerful choice. Not everyone plays that way.

Reading the above I realize that part of the problem with this proposal might be is the fact that someone must be thinking that if the skill is 1-2hp more damage on average people will just automatically take it because of the superiority of it.

I say that indicates a couple things. The major issue is a lack of respect for the community as a whole in assuming that they will take some ability regardless of concept or roll playing just to exploit the mechanic.

Do people do it? Yea some do. Will the few who do ruin the game and make it unplayable. I Doubt that a lot.

However, the question is how many; will there be so many that LEW will crash because of it? Will the parties all of the sudden become unplayable because the barbarian, their damage dealer, now deals out 1-2 hp more than he should have with the rage as written skill. I think the game will survive such trivial assaults on the mechanics of course.

I mean rage as written means the barbarian in rage already does the most damage so what’s the rub? Will the fighter suddenly whip out his calculator and say “hey you are doing 2 hp more than the other barbarian so I am now so out classed this party is no longer fun. Will the wizard quit the thief etc.?

The bottom line is; will those 2 hp break the game; will they make it unplayable; will LEW cease to be fun; will no one play any other class now that this huge +2hp powerhouse is loose in the game? I highly doubt this.

For the most part, in the LEW community from my observation, the players are fair, create good well balanced characters with decent backgrounds and use the available races, classes, skills, and abilities to support them. I think they deserve options and choices.

Who among you is so afraid that those a few extra hp will crash the community that you are willing to deny our players the option of having an alternative barbarian?

Math is great but is not the end all. Flavor, mechanics, player desire, depth of choice for the and in good measure the benefit of a doubt and player respect are all factors in this decision.

This is the last I’ll say on the matter –

Some will abuse any rule and even the SRD as we are using is chalked full of imbalanced stuff. Those players who abuse the system will be those that soon no one wants in their parties, or DM’s will fine a reason to not allow them in an adventure. They will stand out like suns in a field of black! In a way like all communities self regulation will weed out the meta-gaming, power hungry min-maxers we all love to hate.

That as a casual observer, not a member of the voting elite, I think that we (as a community thru the voting elite) sometimes are going to great lengths to try and make absolute balance in a game that is not balanced.

Choices are good and empowering the players with more of them, even if some are obviously a tiny bit superior to others, says to me that as a community we believe that the players will make good choices to be fair with one another when they play the game. As I already said – respect goes a long way.

I no longer have a dog in this fight; I don’t currently have a barbarian. If I do I’ll probably choose, because of my love of orcs, the rage as written option even if this is approved. I have lost interest in this as it seems a lot of work for little or no gain because of what I said two paragraphs above. Are we trying too hard to balance that which is inherently imbalanced? Lots of effort for a few hp here and there I think.

Its late and I been up for 39 hours training soldiers in CQB so bear with the gramar for now.

DerHauptman OUT!
 
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Rystil Arden

First Post
DH--your ideas make sense as far as limited PB resources. It makes me wish, actually, that Whirling Frenzy rewarded the character for spending some points in Dex. As it stands, however, believe it or not, the ability to get an extra attack at -2 rewards pumping only Strength even more than the original rage. Hmm...wonder if we could come up with an alternative that could be cool for a more Dex-based Barbarian :)

By the way, I'll try to explain the math at a more intuitive level--the +2 average damage comes from the fact that the Whirling Frenzy Barbarian has a fairly decent chance to do massively more damage than the normal Barbarian, but then a bit of a chance to miss from the penalty, which averages out to the +2. However, it is usually actually even more than a +2 :confused:
 
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