D&D 5E Pros and Cons of Kits, Prestige classes and Paragon paths. How 5e should handle it?

[UngeheuerLich]

So discuss:

here is my opinion first. Feel free to disagree:

AdnD had kits. The bard´s handbook was full of differently flavoured bard kits, which allowed even different races to become bards of quite high levels. I really liked them a lot.

When Prestige classes were introduced in 3.0 I also liked them. They were introduced as classes in the DM book for players that earn a certain status. The problem was threefold:
first: prerequisites usually were not fullfilled by players if the DM wanted to reward them with those classes.
second: they were later used to fill holes in the multiclassing system.
third: they were usually narrow and were overpowered in certain situations and useless in others.

paragon paths were a good answer to the problem with prestige classes. With multiclassing and usually no requirements, you could really customize your character. After essentials had a default paragon path for every class, you even traded some assumed class abilities for different, possibly from differen classes.

So in 5e i would like to see themes fullfill the role of kits. And multiclassing should fullfill the role of paragon paths.
Prestige classes could be in. Requirements should usually be simple to fullfill. Like: fighter 1 and rogue 1. Or: fighter or rogue level 5.
Their powers need to be written, that they are useful at all levels.

Just like the powers of the base classes. If a fighter10/mage10 is viable, so should be a fighter2/wizard4/spellsword13.
So a working 3e style multiclass system will be the base of a good prestige class system. Each level of a class must be useful, no matter at which level you take it.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I'm of the opinion that Themes, Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies should truly be mainly flavor with just a little bit of mechanics. They should be on par with Race. A character's chosen Race has a couple mechanical features, yes... but is mainly all about the fluff of what that race is. Being an Elf layers a whole heap of culture, history and flavor onto who you are, most of which does not mechanically influence your character in any way. I like that, because it doesn't expand the mechanics of your character so much that it gets confusing or unwieldy.

Themes, PPs and EDs should be the same. If you take a Theme like 'Pirate'... that's a whole heap of culture, history, and flavor that comes along with it. You might mechanically only get a few small features... but it most certainly helps define you as a roleplayed character. PPs and EDs should do the same. Be mainly a way of imparting each more specific flavor onto your PC, along with a few mechanical bonuses for fun. But all of your main mechanics should still come from your Class each and every level up through max.

 

[the Jester]

I remain a huge fan of prestige classes, and think their main flaw is in the prerequisite system (which leads to planning your "build" from level 1 all the way up when you make your character, or at least some people do).

 

[Janaxstrus]

I liked 3es Prestige classes, but I think they need to actually be prestige classes, not just "secondary" classes, and not strictly better than the base class in almost every single way.

For example, Radiant Servant of Pelor is better in every single way EXCEPT, HPs. (d6 instead of d8). You received upgrades to your weapon choices, free metamagic to healing, addition greater turns, etc etc. No real drawbacks or requirements once you've qualified.

Abjurant Champion? Full spellcasting, Full BAB, D10 hit dice? Yes please. Some cool abilities too? Why not. Way too much. If you are a fighter/mage type, there is no reason to not take this over Eldritch Knight.

I would like to see flavorful prestige classes with some stricter entry guidelines, and some fluff behind them. Sadly, if the DM hand waves it offf, there's not much you can do.

 

[Mengu]

Conceptually, I like Kits better than Prestige Classes and Paragon Paths. I find it difficult to work in a time when a prestige class or paragon path can be picked up in game. It doesn't make much sense for my character to be sleeping in the Underdark, and wake up as a Guildmaster Thief the next morning because I gained enough xp to hit level 11. And problem with Prestige Classes is that, when I'm actually in a town with a thieves' guild, I might not qualify for the prestige class, but when I'm sailing the astral sea in a flying ship, I suddenly qualify. It seems more organic to apply a kit, whenever it would be appropriate, whether it be first, fourth, eleventh, or seventeenth level.

 

[Minigiant]

They are stink.

In all seriousness ~75% of the kits and prestige classes were cover ups for the flaws of the system.

Paragon paths were just your 3rd encounter, daily, and utility, plus a free feat and an action point tweak.

Useless! Most of them! Useless if the game is made right.

Replace with themes, feats, spells, and meaningless titles.

 

[KidSnide]

Yeah, with prestige classes and paragon paths, there has been a lot more bad material published than good material. Overall (except for kits), the mechanics have rarely been a good match for the concept.

With paragon paths and epic destinies, you had the major problem that they were mandatory and had to occur at a specific level that may or may not have had anything to do with what the PC was doing at the time. The structure (1 action point ability, 1 L11 encounter attack, 1 L12 utility, 1 L15 class ability, and 1 L20 daily attack) was also too rigid, creating many paragon paths where the powers were strangely disassociated from the concept of the path. With prestige classes, you had a highly variable level of effectiveness with balancing prerequisites that often had little to do with the class. As noted by others, they were also used to patch an otherwise unworkable multiclass system. (I see kits differently since you take them at character creation. They are more like the ancestors of the modern "build" and "theme".)

Going forward, I think WotC needs to improve in five aspects:
(1) A level needs to be a level. Each character class level should be balanced against the others. Instead of using prerequisites to balance a prestige class, the individual levels of the class should be balanced.

(2) The core classes need to have enough class abilities that you can create a balanced prestige class. Wizards and clerics need to have enough class abilities beyond their spell casting, that you can create a class that advances in standard spellcasting but provides a different set of benefits.

(3) WotC needs to get away from the idea that a prestige class defines a character. That can be true, but it doesn't need to be true. Instead, a prestige class

(4) WotC needs to get a better grasp on what makes a good prestige class. Archmage is a stupid prestige class. Who needs a prestige class for "high level wizard"? That type of character is just a high level wizard. For that matter, let's can the idea of "prestige." Let's just call them "minor" classes because they don't go 20 levels. If you want to create a "town sheriff" class that is a fighter variant with some appropriate sheriff-y social abilities, why not allow the characters to take it at low levels?

(4a) To the extent a minor class is a "prestige" class, it should be a game reward. WotC doesn't need to say what the reward should be. It just needs to provide a method of measuring how much more powerful it is than "standard." For example, a 5-level "prestige" class might provide the benefit of gaining an extra 1000 (or 50,000) gp item at each level. That way, allowing a character to take "super monk class" isn't really different than letting another character find a +4 sword or giving a third character a divine boon. Yeah, it's powerful. That's the point.

(5) WotC needs to break from the tyranny of "10 levels." A minor class should have as many levels as befits the class. (I know that they did this some of the time, but the vast majority of prestige classes go 10 levels.) Arcane Archer is a perfectly reasonable example of a character concept that probably needs some specialized mechanics to work. But does it really need 10 levels? This character needs some abilities to deliver spells through arrows, and maybe some special arrow-delivery spells. But most of that character's abilities should be archery tricks and spells from the fighter (or ranger) and wizard classes.

-KS

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Hmmh, i like the boon type prestige class. Your 4a.
Actually there should be more of that in 5e. Some goodies the DM can give to PCs.

 

[howandwhy99]

I see kits as further narrowing of the scope of a class. Class (fighter), Sub-class (Paladin), Kit (Holy Martyr of Zaran'rap).

Prestige classes and Paragon Paths are basically the same sort of thing. These are high level classes a character has to work to qualify for. You don't get to start off as a surgeon. First you learn anatomy and lots of other stuff as a doctor. Then they let you cut people open.

The latter two also narrow the scope of a class, but I don't see kits as needing to be qualified for. Take the required feats, alignment, deity to worship, etc. at start and you get to be one.

 

[Sunseeker]

I like Paragon Paths due to them all triggering at a similar point. When people can pick up certain Prestige Classes @ like, lvl4 because they meet some weird set of pre-requs it just, is odd. Paragon Paths were also pretty robust and fairly well balanced, something Prestige Classes were nowhere even close to.

I don't like super-munchkin-multiclassing. There needs to be some sort of diminishing returns system(that isn't based on XP), such as getting fewer and fewer features the more classes you take on.

I see the role of "kits" along the lines of themes. Something to give your character flavorful variation from the norm, but not something that will significantly increase or diminish your effectiveness in any specific area