Psion power balance questions

[DM_Matt]

Paging Thanee.

 

[Zimbel]

Wizards only get Quicken Spell for spells they have prepped.

Sorcerers do not get Quicken Spell unless they take Arcane Preparation. In that case, they only get Quicken Spell for spells they have prepped.

Psions who take Schism and use it get Quicken Power every round with no prep.

<snip>

But, it's worse that that. The Quicken Power feat costs 6 extra PP every time it is used. Schism costs 7 extra PP on round one and then costs no extra PP for every power that you effectively Quicken.

<snip>

Nice analysis; thanks.

 

[Zimbel]

Fair Warning: I think Psionics are poorly balanced with respect to the core rules. Sorcerers have nothing on Psions, and are definately second-rate in comparison.

You may well be correct; in my mind the primary weaknesses of a Psion is that they can't cast many "buff" spells easily on others, which the other major spellcasters can. Assuming that no one changes PCs, and the other major spellcaster keeps with their development plans, my PC will eventually be the only major spellcaster in the party.

That said, the problem psionic powers our group have seen are:

• Astral Construct,
• Dimension Slide (as a move action),
• Ectoplasmic Cocoon (and Mass version),
• Dispelling Buffer, and
• Mind Blank, Personal

What's wrong with Astral Contruct? Looking at the CRs breifly, it merely seems more flexible (and easier to use) than the Monster Summoning series.
I gather Dispel Magic is common in your game if you don't like Dispelling Buffer. Frankly, it's come up so rarely in games that I've played that I wouldn't worry about it.
I'm also confused about Personal Mind Blank. Mind Blank is nice, but not phenominal in the games I've played. I'd be much more worried about Psionic Mind Blank, since you can cast it on the entire party.

I'm sure there are others; these are the ones we've been exposed to. Mostly, fixing is simply a question of raising the power level to the appropriate one....or allowing Sor/Wiz the same kind of power (as spells, of course).

There is no Sor/Wiz in our present party, so that's less likely to be an issue.

Lately, our party's psionisist has taken (given he can Psychicly Reform himself whenever he finds a better combo for his level) to casting Telekinetic Sphere around himself, then using his burrowing power feat to blast at opponents....and they can't touch him.

Other than trying to Dispel his sphere, his enemies are essentially helpless.

Disintegrate would also work nicely. Or running away, fast (only 30' move while in the sphere). Or getting behind cover (at least against some effects).

 

[KarinsDad]

Nice analysis; thanks.

Actually, it had an inaccuracy in it. As solates reminded us, you have to get your psionic focus back. Assuming the character took the Quicken Power feat and the Psionic Medication feat, comparing Quicken Power and Schism at 7th level becomes:

Quicken Power (this assumes your DM allows you to take Quicken Power at level 6, even though you cannot use it before level 7):

Round 1: 14 PP (1 major, 1 minor)
Round 2: 21 PP (1 major, get back focus)
Round 3: 35 PP (1 major, 1 minor)
Round 4: 42 PP (1 major, get back focus)
Round 5: 56 PP (1 major, 1 minor)
Round 6: 63 PP (1 major, get back focus)
Round 7: not enough PP to do it again

Schism:

Round 1: 7 PP (1 major = Schism, 0 minor), you cannot really count Schism itself
Round 2: 15 PP (1 major, 1 minor)
Round 3: 23 PP (1 major, 1 minor)
Round 4: 31 PP (1 major, 1 minor)
Round 5: 39 PP (1 major, 1 minor)
Round 6: 47 PP (1 major, 1 minor)
Round 7: 55 PP (1 major, 1 minor), Schism runs out

Quicken Power and Schism:

Round 1: 14 PP (1 major = Schism, 1 minor)
Round 2: 22 PP (1 major, 1 minor, get back focus)
Round 3: 37 PP (1 major, 2 minor)
Round 4: 45 PP (1 major, 1 minor, get back focus)
Round 5: 60 PP (1 major, 2 minor)
Round 6: 68 PP (1 major, 1 minor, get back focus), in you have this many PP
Round 7: not enough PP to do it again

So two feats versus one power and the power crushes in utility. The only advantage of Quicken Power is that you get one additional (different from Schism) major power off in round one which actually could be critical in a combat.

 

[Zimbel]

Hrmm.

Every time you use a metapsionic effect you also lose your psionic focus, which you can only regain with another concentration check and 1 round lost. A feat does shorten the time it takes to get psionicly refocused to 1 move action.

Psicrystal Containment can also help, here.

This limits the psion on blowing through the opposition as it were, yes he gets one round where hes doing some major damage but then has to rebalance in the following round.

This is margnially off-topic, but I think that Psionic Meditation should be on most Psions' lists as an important feat to get. I guess it wouldn't be for a Psion who rarely, if ever, uses a focus more than once/combat.

Of note the various energy powers(energy bolt, burst, ray, cone) are powerful for several reasons.
1. unlike its arcane or divine counterparts the psion can pick from any of the 5 energy bases at the time of casting(arcane or divine casters have to pick up a feat for each element they want to substitute(energy substitution).
2. The actual damage and save dcs go up as the psion levels up indefinately(only very few powers have an actual cap on power expenditures).
3. The act of augmentation does not make the psion lose his psionic focus.
4. You CAN augment and use a metapsionic feat on the same power and at later levels this can get probmatic because of the shear damage involved in some of the lower level spells being used in this way. In general almost all of them start with little to no damage dice, but its dangerous when a psion can generate a burst effect maximized.

Note that the energy powers can't do acid.
Also, with augmentation, they cost the same as a higher level spell of roughly the same damage. However, for the low-level ones, that does allow talented to come into play.

On a different note the real dangerous powers are the ones that the psion uses on himself for buffs, his armor buffs have no cap, his weapon augmentation buffs also have no cap.

In example a lvl 100 psions lvl 1 armor spell can be boosted by up to 99 power points. And it will provide a hefty 37 armor bonus(I believe--thats from memory).

Not only that but a psion can gain armor, shield, insight, and natural armor bonuses from powers.

Weapon wise a psion can either buff his natural weaponry or an actual weapon in the same manner.

On the other side(arcane and divine) the only way to get a higher armor bonus from a spell is to create an epic spell to do so(expensive in both xp and gold).

In reality its all about the setting. In the original psionic setting(athas) psionics were not an issue because of the lack of magical augmentation running around, you really had to be that tough if you did not have magical armor and weapons.

From the xph you can make a character that without gear of any sort can still kill effectively at any level, with smart power selection and power usage. Likewise if you do run psionics as a player and as a dm you need to recognize this and maybe run a more brutal type world.

TBH though psionics are fairly balanced on the whole with its counterparts, at epic levels there starts to be a gap, but at normal gameplay you will get pretty much the same powerlevel from a psion as a wizard or sorcerer. The only major difference is the psion can heal himself and others.

Anyways i would be more concerned with having a soulblade or psychic warrior in the party more than a psion, a psion is a caster, and casters are squishy

Solates

Yes, I'd noted that some of the low-level buffs look really nice. Good points on Epic; I doubt I would have thought of those. However, considering our last campaign ended at LV 22, I doubt that Epic issues will be a problem for long.

As for squishy, after playing a sorcerer LV 4,8-20, Con is my PC's second-highest stat. Still has some squish, but less than you might expect.

 

[KarinsDad]

The above listed powers are not even on my list of to gets for a psion. Theres other powers that are in effect alot more "fun" and easier on gameplay issues.

Astral constructs for example are fine, if you have them pre-prepared otherwise they bog down gameplay building them.

Astral Constructs are twice as potent as Summoned creatures in combat.

Summoned creatures have two advantages: a) some can cast spells, b) you can summon several less powerful ones for some circumstances like taking out a Wizard's Mirror Image spell.

But, as combat machines, the same level Astral Construct will almost always blow through the same level Summoned Monster or Nature's Ally.

The morphic powers I always ignore because in all likely hood if i wanted to be a shapeshifter i would have went into the shifter prestige class. Other than maybe sneaking into somewhere as an item on someone else, or spying as an animal-see limited use.

The point you are missing is that this is a balance discussion. As a Psion, you can shift almost as nice as the shifter prestige class and then turn around and be a healer and then turn around and be a blaster and they turn around and be an infiltrator. Wizards and Sorcerers do not have that level of flexibility.

TBH though psionics are fairly balanced on the whole with its counterparts, at epic levels there starts to be a gap, but at normal gameplay you will get pretty much the same powerlevel from a psion as a wizard or sorcerer. The only major difference is the psion can heal himself and others.

Anyways i would be more concerned with having a soulblade or psychic warrior in the party more than a psion, a psion is a caster, and casters are squishy

Not when I played one.

I took a Psion from level 1 to level 10 and fell unconscious once. I was out of PP and jumped off a ledge (so, I knocked myself unconscious) because I was the only one who had been capable of getting up into a cavern to fight the bad guys, the rest of the PCs were stuck below and were pin cushions for arrows from above in the dark. Since I knew that I was running out of HP and would not defeat the bad guys alone since I was also out of PP, I jumped because I knew the other PCs below me could heal me.

Once. In about 30 7 hour gaming sessions. Virtually nobody takes a PC up 9 levels and only falls unconscious once.

I also did on average, about as much damage as anyone else in the group.

My fellow PCs fell unconscious much more often. On average, at least someone (and sometimes several someones) in the group fell unconscious every other combat or so. And some died in that process.

If you design and play them well, a psion is NOT squishy.

 

[Zimbel]

With temporal acceleration, it can't possibly act as a 9th level spell at lower levels, and that's why I wouldnt say it's broken. With powers, you can scale them as you go up in level. When do you get time stop? Level 17 or 18. When can you use temporal acceleration for 4 rounds? If you include the "normal" round, level 18.

My view is that Time Stop is broken at any level. Specifically, as a LV 18 Sorcerer, I took time stop as my first LV 9 spell. Around the 4th combat (after attaining this level), I decided to see what a combat would be like without using it, since most combats didn't last beyond the Sorcerer's turn. After my turn, when I spent a Mass Haste and some other minor spell, 1 PC died, and numerous PCs were badly hurt. Only one of the opponents was even moderately hurt. Coming to my senses, I went back to using Time Stop and the encounter was over.
My rough conclusion from that battle is that Time Stop made my PC roughly the power of the entire party.

Why?

Let's say that Time stop (or Temporal Acceleration, if you will) gives you +3 rounds to act. This means that at the end of the first round of combat, you've gotten the same number of actions you'd normally get in the entire combat (assuming a standard 4-round combat). Furthermore, there's nothing preventing you from doing that next round, and every round thereafter (other than Power Points/ Spell slots). Effectively, you're increasing your caster's power by nearly x4. In other words, your caster (assuming that otherwise they are the power of an average party member - unlikely to be that weak at high levels) is the power of the entire party without it.

Using Temporarl Acceleration to give you +3 rounds costs 19 PP. With Overchannel, you can do this by LV 16.

<edit: add>I think the only possible weakness of it may be that it's harder to use offensive powers with it than offensive spells with Time Stop.

 

[KarinsDad]

My view is that Time Stop is broken at any level. Specifically, as a LV 18 Sorcerer, I took time stop as my first LV 9 spell. Around the 4th combat (after attaining this level), I decided to see what a combat would be like without using it, since most combats didn't last beyond the Sorcerer's turn. After my turn, when I spent a Mass Haste and some other minor spell, 1 PC died, and numerous PCs were badly hurt. Only one of the opponents was even moderately hurt. Coming to my senses, I went back to using Time Stop and the encounter was over.
My rough conclusion from that battle is that Time Stop made my PC roughly the power of the entire party.

Well, it is really potent.

I'm not sure about broken. We just had a combat where the entire party got the equivalent benefits of a Time Stop and a PC still died.

Scenario: One powerful monster, but one they had defeated and forced to flee in the past. The party Shadowmind pulled out her Mirror of Time Hop and the monster failed the DC 14 will save. The party then had 5 rounds to prep. They came up with a good strategy and cast a bunch of spells. The monster came back into the timeframe and the party starting whaling on it. The monster broke out of the Evard's Black Tentacles that the Warmage had put up before it came back, landed on the Warmage, and the Warmage died a few rounds later. The party did drive off the monster, but they did not kill it.

This is a scenario where everyone in the group got the equivalent of the 5 round Timestop and they still lost a PC.

Timestop / Temporal Acceleration can be very potent, but mostly you just get to buff up ahead of time. There are situations (like before opening up the dungeon door) where the entire party can buff up ahead of time without such potent magic. Does that make those types of easier encounters "broken"?

PS. I think that except for the saving throw, Time Hop is more potent than Temporal Acceleration. That can be equivalent to giving the entire group Timestop.

 

[Nail]

What's wrong with Astral Contruct? Looking at the CRs breifly, it merely seems more flexible (and easier to use) than the Monster Summoning series.

Put bluntly: The CRs of Astral Construct are too low. Their ACs are too good, their attack routines are too good, their special abilities are too good.

They don't have spell-like abilities. If that's the only balancing factor....well, it's not enough.

I gather Dispel Magic is common in your game if you don't like Dispelling Buffer. Frankly, it's come up so rarely in games that I've played that I wouldn't worry about it.

Psions are exceptional at self-buffing. Given even a short amount of time befor ecombat, they can become untouchable. There's only one way through that: Dispel Psionics/Magic.

I'm also confused about Personal Mind Blank. Mind Blank is nice, but not phenominal in the games I've played. I'd be much more worried about Psionic Mind Blank, since you can cast it on the entire party.

The whole series is trouble. Look at the levels Personal Mind Blank is available, and compare to the Arcane version.

Disintegrate would also work nicely. Or running away, fast (only 30' move while in the sphere). Or getting behind cover (at least against some effects).

Both strategies are....sub-optimal, at best. Far more monsters have access to Dispel Magic/Psionics than have Disintegrate.

Try it from this angle: You are a DM, and have a Kineticist as a player. For every combat he puts up Telekinetic Sphere, and then uses Burrowing power to blast the bad guys with impunity. How do you challenge him? (Challenging him the same way each and every encounter is too boring to contemplate. )

 

[Scion]

Given the amount of incorrect, or at least misleading, information that is in this thread I would suggest that you also go to the psionics boards and ask them for their opinion about these things along with any others you may think of:

Psionics

They are generally very good about giving balance reasons and decent explanations about how psionics fits into a game.

Likely you would be able to get a lot of responses from people with 'much' more personal experience.