psion vs. spell point wizard

[AbeTheGnome]

take a look at the psion class, then take a look at the wizard class. they look pretty similar. same proficiencies, two skill points per level, d4 hit die, bonus feats at the same levels, etc. pay close attention to how many power points the psion gains per level. now look at the UA spell points variant, and check out how many spell points the wizard receives per level. The spell point variant is nearly identical to the psionic power point system. how is it, then, that the psion receives so many more power points than the wizard receives spell points (or even the sorcerer, for that matter)? is the psion class broken, or is it the UA spell points system? both? neither?

 

[EyeontheMountain]

take a look at the psion class, then take a look at the wizard class. they look pretty similar. same proficiencies, two skill points per level, d4 hit die, bonus feats at the same levels, etc. pay close attention to how many power points the psion gains per level. now look at the UA spell points variant, and check out how many spell points the wizard receives per level. The spell point variant is nearly identical to the psionic power point system. how is it, then, that the psion receives so many more power points than the wizard receives spell points (or even the sorcerer, for that matter)? is the psion class broken, or is it the UA spell points system? both? neither? feedback begins... now.

No need to end your post like you did. I find it annoying.

The UA spell point system, as I remember, allows for free augmentation. ALso, many wizard spells are just plain beter point for point than psion abilities even without augmentation mainly becasue spells were not made with spell point systems in mind nad psionic powers were.

Feedback done. Nothing more to see here. (Look, ma, I can be annoying also)

 

[Thanee]

Apart from the Psion class being broken, anyways, the Spell Point system is even more broken.

It's totally whacky, because there is (almost) no 'augmentation', most spells have their full power with just the basic cost.

Wizards get a huge flexibility increase, since they only need to choose what set of spells to prepare for the day, but then can flexibly cast those like a sorcerer (which gives them equal to superior spells known for a day, than a sorcerer has for his/her life already, and they can change it every day at their leisure; and sorcerers do not even get that many more spell points each day for compensation).

The only real advantage, the Psion retains in comparison, is that the higher number of Power Points allows for more high level effects. But it's not even that much more, I think.

All spells, that deal (dice of) damage, are ridiculously bad under the UA system, because of the extra limitations put on them (only).

Very, very bad idea that.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Sithobi1]

The UA spellpoints are broken. First, notice that the Wizard gets to choose his list of spells known each day from his spellbook. Second, it doesn't account for abilities that scale with caster level; only damage dice cost more spell points. Thus, spells like Giant Size gain increased effects for free while the psion must pay more for these. Overall, it looks like an attempt to make magic into psionics...but it fails at what it does.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

The UA spellpoints are broken. First, notice that the Wizard gets to choose his list of spells known each day from his spellbook. Second, it doesn't account for abilities that scale with caster level; only damage dice cost more spell points. Thus, spells like Giant Size gain increased effects for free while the psion must pay more for these. Overall, it looks like an attempt to make magic into psionics...but it fails at what it does.

I largely agree, the UA spellpoints system is inconsistently designed and not very well done over all. The whole point of a system is that it's you know, systematic and regular, and the UA version certainly isn't. It does read like an attempt to make magic work like psionics that they only half-way finished.

I think there are a couple basic realities of a spellpoints system they were trying to avoid.
1. Spellpoints blur the lines between Wizard and Sorcerer
2. The added flexibility greatly increases caster power regardless.
3. Metamagic needs to be spontaneous or it's wasted.
4. Consistency, mechanics need to be unified.

Ultimately they failed to properly apply the advantages of a spellpoints system to their fullest and instead created a hybrid that doesn't do well at anything. The last decent spellpoints system for D&D I saw was Netheril.

Things to fix
1. If you're using spellpoints you don't NEED both sorcerers and wizards just one, let wizards cast spontaneously from their spellbook.
2. Whatever class you use as a base it should get the same number of spells per refresh of its spellpoints reservoir as it's Vancian version got per refresh of its spell-slots.
3. Keep the autoscaling spells, otherwise magic loses most of its power compared to the Vancian version.
4. Let metamagic work on the fly and assess each metamagic feat a spellpoint cost to add to a spell.
5. (Houserule Warning)-Direct damage in 3e falls behind the curve past a certain level for save-or-die effects. So pull the damage caps so spells can continue to compete at higher levels and with save-or-die effects.

 

[Thanee]

2. Whatever class you use as a base it should get the same number of spells per refresh of its spellpoints reservoir as it's Vancian version got per refresh of its spell-slots.

This is impossible without restricting the spell point system so much, that it works just like the vancian system does. The added flexibility allows to either cast more but lower level or less but higher level spells in total. If you want to give wizards the possibility to cast exactly the same spells as they could normally (when the spell points are used in this fashion), then you simply make them (much) more powerful, since you give them more flexibility and take nothing away in return.

Bye
Thanee

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

This is impossible without restricting the spell point system so much, that it works just like the vancian system does.

Should have explained that better. What I was trying to get at was however you eventually price spells you should get the size of the spell point reservior by then adding up how many points the Vancian slots of a traditional Wizard would require and using that as a base figure.

If you want to give wizards the possibility to cast exactly the same spells as they could normally (when the spell points are used in this fashion), then you simply make them (much) more powerful, since you give them more flexibility and take nothing away in return.

Yes it does make them more powerful, much more so than the standard version. Purely IMO mind you, but I think they should be. It's MAGIC it should be very powerful. Either that or keep the UA scheme for augmenting damage dice, apply it to the effects of all spells equally, and in return give wizards d6 and light armor proficiency and dump ASF to match clerics

 

[Blightersbane]

Not wanting to hi-jack other threads here is our current position(s) IMC we have been discussing allowing the Psion class in all campaigns however with the ability to manifest only Psion powers which are not listed as wizard/sorcerer spells in the player’s handbook. That is they can not manifest any powers that read "as per spell". This will force the Psion into the unique role for which the class was intended (imo) and end the "why allow them at all nay sayers" so we hope. It is in our collective opinions that most of the anti Psion rhetoric attacks the Psion for being a mere duplicate as mere duplicate of the Wizard Sorcerer with a different casting format. With this in mind the removal of all “duplicate” powers will allow the Psion to keep his point buy manifesting system and leave her with a more refined & unique power list.

Here is a few of the proposed banned powers Psionic charm, psionic divination, psionic domination, pretty much any power with the word psionic in its name as most simply duplicate like named wizard/sorcerer spells, psionic freedom of movement, psionic fly, psionic dimension door, psionic grease the list goes on.

BUT for this handicap we propose to add access to another discipline. Some players were suggesting to add access to all disciplines as the removal of so many powers would leave the Psion impendent.


Blightersbane