Psionic Mindflayer CR Question.

Iskrets

First Post
I'm currently playing in a level 8 campaign in a nonstandard campaign setting. Yesterday, three of our party (paladin, monk, cleric) fought a mindflayer. During the battle, the DM let slip that this mindflayer was a 9th level manifester. Not possessing either the MM or Expanded Psionics, I don't know how common or reasonable this is. However, when calculating experience points after the adventure, he had me enter the mindflayer as a CR 8 encounter in the online calculator that we use. My question is this: is there anything in either the MM or Expanded Psionics to suggest that this is reasonable? How could a the equivalent of a 9th level character ever be a CR 8? I consider this especially important, since story elements have suggested that we'll be killing mindflayers for quite some time, and I don't like dying or being dominated. Can anyone help me out?
 

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It looks like your DM used a base Mind Flayer with the standard modifications "Mind Flayer, Psionic" presented in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. This is a CR 8 creature, meaning that it should be a reasonable encounter for a party of 4 8th level PC's.

You may be confusing the CR (challenge rating) with ECL (effective character level). ECL is the equivalent character level if the creature was a PC, and generally does not equal it's CR. In this case, you may be surprised to know that the ECL of this creature is probably 15.
 

Thanks a bunch

Much appreciated. I may well have been confusing ECL an CR. To be honest, the only experience I have with either is what other players have told me. With any luck, our other party members will make future encounters more manageable. And I'm definitely preparing magic circle against evil from now on(friggin' dominate!).
 

The monster with the caster level is not assumed to be kitted out with the larger amount of magical gear that a actual character class NPC would have. Nor does it have the customization an NPC with gear would have.

Count youself lucky, at least your party all have the saves to help deal with flayers.

1. Get good light for all party members. Those SOBs love the dark and gleefullly launch psi attacks from in there.

2. Charge with extreame prejudice any flayer that mind blasts at the group from the ground level.

3. Get some mooks on your side. If the flayers are trying to hit and run, they may not realize the others with you are red shirts. Make sure the paladin doesn't either...
 
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There are other examples of this. Take a look at the Planetar - CR 16 but casts spells as if a 17th level Cleric as well as having all this spell like abilities and storming attributes.

Cheers
 

Actually, I just had the same issue.

The mind flayer listed in the MM is a CR 8. The psionic mind flayer replaces the standard mind flayer's small compliment of spell-like abilities with the full abilities of a 9th level telepath. This is obviously much more difficult. I ruled last night (after a psionic mind flayer nearly annihilated my players) that a psionic mind flayer is a CR 9, but there's no official word on this.

Demiurge out.
 

Iskrets said:
Much appreciated. I may well have been confusing ECL an CR. To be honest, the only experience I have with either is what other players have told me. With any luck, our other party members will make future encounters more manageable. And I'm definitely preparing magic circle against evil from now on(friggin' dominate!).

First off, welcome to the boards!

To resolve the mystery about ELC, LA, EL and CR.

LA/ECL: Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level. This only concerns players. When you play stronger races, these have a level adjustment to balance their superior abilities. If you add this LA to the class levels (and maybe monster hit dice, for those creatures that have racial hit dice), you get the ECL. Say you have a drow fighter 5. Drow have a LA of 2, so said fighter has an ECL of 7. This means that he can take on the same challenges a human fighter 7 could, due to his powerful racial abilities. He has hit dice (and hit points, feats, ability increases, and skill points; also level caps for spells like sleep) like a level 5 character, but gets treated like a level 7 character in regards to character wealth, XP awarded (higher-level characters get less XP for the same monsters) and XP needed to advance a level.

CR: Challenge Rating. This only concerns enemies. This gauges the degree of danger a single monster poses: A group of 4 characters of level X can take on one enemy with CR X using about 20% of their resources (HP, spells, and so on).

EL: Encounter Level. Also just for monsters. You can calculate the EL of an ancounter by combining the CR's of all participants, also adjusting for special circumstances (like when one side has a serious advantage). Note that this isn't as easy as saying "2x CR 5 = CR 10". It can become pretty confusing when a lot of enemies with different CR's are involved. But this is really the DM's job.

The difference between CR and ECL: CR only takes into account what danger the enemy poses in a fight (which usually lasts only a couple of rounds). That enemy is only around for this one fight, so he won't be able to use all of his abilities: It doesn't really matter whether that enemy can use an ability 3/day or at will, for he probably won't get the chance to use it that often. Also, stuff that doesn't affect combat won't really change anything.
ECL, on the other hand, is for player characters, and they will be around for almost every encounter, for the whole campaign (well, more or less). So there is a difference between casting invisibility only once per day or as often as you want, and so on. Therefore, there is a difference between these two (sometimes a big one).
 

I'm getting to ready to send my PCs up against a psionic mindflayer, and I'm also thinking that the CR is too low. Not only do they get a winder selection of powers, but the saves are going to be higher, as they are both based on a slightly higher stat, and augmentable.
 

Well at least the psionic mind Flayer has a levels of psion. and the limitations that implies, other psionic creatures get full augmentation of every power, many useable unlimited times, with no regards to Power points.

Another cause of difference between ECL and CR is the eliete array of stats, before bonuses.
while monster stats are based on something like 12 points.

I have not used Psionic Ithillids but, it seems that other posters have, and that they are more dangerous than CR would imply.
 

Evilhalfling said:
Well at least the psionic mind Flayer has a levels of psion. and the limitations that implies, other psionic creatures get full augmentation of every power, many useable unlimited times, with no regards to Power points.

That is not really a detriment. If it lives long enough to run out of PPs, I would think that would be extremely strong circumstantial evidence it is better than a CR 8.

That is at least 8 powers manifested at maximum juice -- the equivalent of 8 5th level spells. More likely it is some combination of buffs and swift powers plus 5 or 6 rounds of "hellfire".

That should strip away much, much more than 20% of the resources of an 8th level party of 4.
 

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